LED Curtain for Garage

M

munu

Member
We have a 2 car garage (just one door) that is probably 16' wide and 8' tall. I am thinking of building an LED curtain for it. The door is only about 20' away from the sidewalk. So I think I would have to place the LEDs somewhat close. Most pixels strings have pixels 4" apart. Would this still give a good effect where you can recognize pattern well from 20' away?

Assuming a distance of 4", there are 16*3=48 pixels for the 16' and 8*3=24 pixels in 8'. So that's a total of 1152 pixels. WS2811 pixels are at least $0.25/pixel. But I would need individually addressable pixels, e.g. WS1812(B). They seem kind of hard to find and probably more like $0.4/pixel. So that would be 1152*$0.4 = $460 just for the pixels, assuming you can find individual addressable pixels for $0.4/pixel.

There are WS2812B LED strips with 30 LEDs/m and 5m for about $20 for waterproof strips. So that's about $20 / 150LEDs = $0.14/LED. That's about 1/3 or a pixel but you end up with a lot more pixels, i.e. 3 pixels for every 4" instead of 1 pixel every 4". So now for 8' you have 8' / (3.28'/m) * 30 LED/m = 73 LEDs. So 74 LEDs vs the 24 pixels. Let's assume we still keep the 4" distance in the horizontal, that would still mean 48 strips to cover the 16'. So now we are at 48 strips with each strip 73 LEDs (realistically, you cut the 150 strip in 2) and you end up with 48*75 LEDs = 3600 LEDs. Each is $0.14 so a total of $504. So about 10% more but twice the density in the vertical.

I think in xLight you can take care of the different densities in the vertical and horizontal. What about controllers? How well will LED strips compare to pixels? I don't plan to put them into some kind of PVC piping. I don't have the space to store this. I am thinking of just having some bar on top, then some kind of bar at the bottom to pull the strings straight. Has anybody done anything like that?
 
I would not use strips in this (or any) application (all of mine have failed and been removed from my show). I would (and have) used bullet nodes. You don't want to hang bullet pixel strings by their wires. It causes the sealant in the base to get pulled about and lets moisture in. That means you will be mounting the pixels to something, I would use a bocoyo pixel grid 4'x8' sheet.

If you do go with strips, I would still mount them to something to help maintain alignment. I used a large flexible plastic net on my garage door. I put a few weights on the bottom and I curled the top over the top edge of the door and attached it on the inside. This allowed the sheet to move as the door opened / closed and prevented the seams from getting jammed.

From a controller point of view, this is just a matrix. You wire it as a set of zig-zag strings with less then 700 pixels to a string (yes I did power injection). The net gave me something to attach the pixels to and a way to hold the PI wires so they did not drape all over.

At 20' you have a good viewing distance so I would space the pixels 2 or 3 inches apart. A matrix that big is going to use 4 thousand pixels. You will most likely run it at less than 50% to prevent the door from becoming a beacon in the night.
 
Thank you for that input. Good point about not hanging pixel strings by their wire. That was my plan for easy storage and less weight. So I need to change my plan here.

Your comment about a large flexible plastic net sounds very interesting. Do you have a link to what you used? I wonder if something like that could also work with pixels, again for easy storage. We live in a somewhat dense area where you don't have a lot of land where I could put up a dedicated shed for lights...

And going through the forums for something else, I came across "pebble pixels". I wonder if those would be a good alternative to LED strips, i.e. more reliable (similar to Pixels?), smaller, easier to store, cheaper, etc? And maybe those wouldn't need some net or something behind and you can just hang them with a small weight at the bottom (like a PVC pipe) to keep them straight?

I also looked at Boscoyo and they have two products that might apply. One is specifically listed for garages. They all have 2.3" spacings (20 pixels for 46")

boscoyostudio.com

UltiMesh (No Wind Holes) for Garage Door

UltiMesh ( No Wind Holes) ***Specifically for use on Garage doors where no wind holes are needed*** ***Disclaimer: Garage door weights need to be strong enough to handle the weight of the product with pixels being applied to the doors*** We are not responsible for any overweights applied to...
boscoyostudio.com boscoyostudio.com

I read the description but I still don't quite understand what the "No Wind Holes" means. Are there alternatives that somehow can deal with wind by inserting holes? Though that mesh is mostly just holes already, anyways. Also is it flexible enough to open the garage door? I suspect it is as they talk about weight and the motor, etc. They don't list the weight for those items, though.

Then they say you need a slip sheet. I looked at the link of the slip sheet but I don't quite understand what this is doing. It talk about zip ties but shouldn't that mesh already hold the 12mm bulbs in place? If not, are they being sandwiched between the mesh and the slip sheet? Does anyone have some pics that shows how all of that looks like and equally important, how that works with storage. Btw, those 4x8 are actually 46" x 92" so 2" short of 4'. But that's kind of perfect because I just measured the outside(!) size of the garage door and it's 2" short of 16' x 8' in both directions. It's probably standard so Boscoyostudio adjusted those meshes.

The other option might be the "monster matrix"

boscoyostudio.com

Monster Matrix Panels V5

Name: Monster Matrix Panels V5 Description: Our Monster Matrix Panels help make an impression that will last for years. This product material has been upgraded in February 2024 to our V5. As we are always working and trying to better our products and materials this is one that is a great product...
boscoyostudio.com boscoyostudio.com

Can this also be used for garages? And does it also require that slip sheet? My concern with this one is that it's not flexible so maybe you can't open the garage door without breaking it? Also these seem to be real 4'x8' sheets so they are just a bit too big for a garage. I guess I would have to cut of a row or two. Same for column. And they seem harder to combine.
 
A mesh with all of the holes filled is a massive wind sail. Wind gets behind it and lifts it up with significant force. If I don't tie my matrix down I will find it in the neighbors yard and it has only every other hole filled. There are versions of the mesh from other vendors that have wind holes. I think one vendor calls them a mesh net. If you are in a windy area, you need to take the wind effects into account on your build.

For my garage door I used a plastic shower curtain as a slip sheet. You do not want the wires rubbing directly on the door finish. It can leave some ugly marks (don't ask how I know, wife is still giving me a hard time about it). I have no pictures and no longer use the setup because the garage on my current house does not face the street.

As for the monster mesh, I have no idea. It says flexible but I suspect it is not anywhere near as flexible as the ChromaMesh.
 
A plastic mesh with bullet nodes I think is okay if you are willing to make a support frame for it.
Tom BetGeorge's garage door matrix uses coro with magnets. Garage door can open/close with the pixels on it (although a lot of extra weight and springs may need to be adjusted).

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
1722239352875.png

One from Youtube: Mesh suspended in the garage door frame. Maybe you could attach the bottom of the matrix to the door so it folds up with the garage opening.
Slip sheet like Martin mentioned would be a good idea.

On AusChristmasLighting forum someone mounted a bullet mesh on a portable frame which swing's out like a gate: https://auschristmaslighting.com/threads/pixel-matrix-over-an-old-garage-door.14811/post-128156


munu said:
I came across "pebble pixels". ...................... smaller, easier to store, cheaper, etc?
Click to expand...
A few vendors sell seed pixels in matrices https://yourpixelstore.com/product/seed-matrix-mesh/

There's some who have made their own with standard strings.

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
1722239764707.png
 
Ok, so new plan. I am thinking of going with seed (Wu calls them pepple) pixels. He has DC12V, 50mm spacing, only power at beginning & end (no other power injection), 1m x 4m for $235, I believe 22AWG. I would need 2 which comes out to $270 + PSU + etc. Not inexpensive. 2*1600 pixels = 3,200 pixels. Has anyone experience with those incl. reliability, repair, etc.


Or should I go with just plain 12V, 50mm spacing, 20AWG pixels and construct the grid myself.


These run at $235 for 3000 pixels, which is probably closer to what I need as the garage door is just short of 2m x 4m. And these are 20AWG. Would I need power injection for those because current only travels one way (I assume with the 'net' it travels vertically and horizontally so you only need to provide power on two sides x 2 as it's 2 1m x 4m grids).
 
Doing more research, Wu seems to have two versions. One is $235 for 4m x 1m, the other one $265 for 4m x 1m. Pictures are identical. The more expensive one says "WS2811/WS2812B", the cheaper one doesn't say anything about the pixel type. Could that be the difference?


2m x 4m actually is not a bad size because a 8' x 16' garage door is 2.44m x 4.88m and on the outside a bit less. So 2m x 4m seems pretty good. That's 2x $235 (assuming the less expensive one) = $470. If I buy a 3000 pixel reel it's $235 (yes, same as the less expensive 1m x 4m matrix). So with the same 3200 pixels I pay $235/3000*3200=$251 compared to the $470. So almost half the price.

So paying twice as much gives me an easy solution whereas with the custom solution I have to put a bunch of time into it to arrange those 3000 pixel reels. If that was the only difference, I probably would go with the more expensive $470 solution. I think my work would be worth the $230 extra. However, the 3000 reel is 20AWG and the 1m x 4m net is using 22AWG. I have heard that it's really difficult to fix a string with small wires (larger AWG number). I fixed a good number of x-mas lights and it takes time. So spending more time fixing those premade matrix lights with 22AWG wires might add more time than fixing the 20AWG wires from the custom solution. So that adds even more to the cost of the premade solution. Any opinions? Yes, I enjoy doing stuff like that but I also value more family time... Maybe that's my answer...
 
I personally think taking a standard spool and cable tying to a plastic mesh is more cost effective & easier to repair.

This a curtain version from 2022 I got.
The pixels get power/data from the top. It takes 4 wires (data in, +, -, data out).
1722551686711.jpeg
It looks like Wu's matrices are the curtain with extra wires horizontally to keep good spacing.


Ideas from the Facebook groups:
This person uses plastic mesh and cable ties to attach the seed pixels (in a standard native model zig-zag layout).
1722552513669.png


This person used clear poly carbonate roof panel sheets, like for an outdoor greenhouse, and put the seed pixels into each flute.
1722551946400.png

SFL designs makes mounting clips for a PVC frame.
sfl-designs.com

Seed Pixel Pipe Matrix For 1" Seed Spacing

These are our seed pixel pipe matrix clips specifically for 1" seed pixels. They snap onto PVC or EMT pipe to create wrap locations for your seed pixels. You then use small zip ties to secure the wire to the clips. One clip is used on the top and bottom of each column. Once the seed pixels are...
sfl-designs.com sfl-designs.com
1722552068226.png
 
Well, I am getting two of Ray Wu's 1m x 5m seed/pebble matrixes with 50mm (~2") spacing. I am hoping this will give a good effect. I just measured the distance from the garage door to the beginning of the side walk. It's exactly 25'.

So while I am waiting for the matrixes, I will try to do some design in xLights for those 100*40 = 4,000 pixels that I am going to control with a Falcon F48. If you have hints, designs, etc. to try, that would be great. My plan is to use it for Halloween first, then Christmas.

 
munu said:
Well, I am getting two of Ray Wu's 1m x 5m seed/pebble matrixes with 50mm (~2") spacing. I am hoping this will give a good effect. I just measured the distance from the garage door to the beginning of the side walk. It's exactly 25'.

So while I am waiting for the matrixes, I will try to do some design in xLights for those 100*40 = 4,000 pixels that I am going to control with a Falcon F48. If you have hints, designs, etc. to try, that would be great. My plan is to use it for Halloween first, then Christmas.

Click to expand...
Are you wanting to run at 40FPS or just 20FPS?
640 pixels max per port at 40FPS, 1024 max per port at 20FPS (absolute max 1023 for the white F48 Falcon boards because of port banking).
 
Actually, maybe I was too quick with buying those. I wonder how I am going to use that with an F48. One net has 20*100=2'000 LEDs. But there is only one port (well, two but they are connected together). So could I run them at 10fps using just 1 port? Or maybe I have to do two cuts so I can have attach two more connectors for a total of 4 connectors. Then each connector controls 5*100=500 LEDs. So 4 ports per net for a total of 8 ports and then I can run them at 40fps.

20x100.png
 
Or, I guess I could just cut it in the middle and then use the bottom and top connector. Then each connector will control 10*100=1000 LEDs at 20fps. It seems to me, 20fps should be fine but I am not sure. It's the first time I do something like that with an F48.

And if you can actually run 2,000 LEDs at 10fps on an F48 v1.02, then I will just first try that to get a feeling if 20fps would be good enough or if I should go for 40fps.
 
The falcons (and most other controllers) have a max number of pixels per port independant of FPS. In most cases this is 1024 pixels.
 
@MartinMueller2003 do you know if this is also the case for the white F48 1.02? I just did go through the manual again and I can't find any information about higher fps allowing fewer pixels. They only say max is 1024 per port. Actually, it seems more complicated, as 3 ports (1 port per bank) need to share 1024 pixels. It might not be smart to assign 1022 to bank 1 and 1 to bank 2 and 3. But it would allow me to just cut the matrix in half, then use 4 ports (1000 for the upper part of matrix 1, 1000 for the lower part of matrix 1, 1000 for the upper part of matrix 2, 1000 for the lower part of matrix 2). So this could be done with one differential board. Then I still have 12 ports left. For the rest of the house I guess I would need 6 ports and then I have 6 ports left for other props.

* 4 ports for garage matrix
* 1 port for the garage outline/roof
* 1 port for the roof above the garage and entrance
* 1 port for the roof above the entrance
* 1 port for the entrance
* 1 port for the outline of the right side
* 1 port for the window on the right side
* 1 port for 4 arches
=> 11 ports

Then I have 5 ports left for other props.

I guess instead of cutting each of the two matrixes into two and use the connector on each side, I could cut it at two places and solder 2 additional connectors per net. I am not sure how well this will work with 24AWG cables, only 5cm/2" between two pixels and that plastic piece which probably cuts those 5cm/2" into 2.5cm/1". And that's if I cut right next to one plastic piece. If I cut the wire in the middle of two plastic pieces I will only have 1.3cm/0.5" to work with.

Or maybe there is a way that I don't waste that many ports by using a 1024 port for just 122 (roof above entrance) to 512 LEDs (outline of garage).

So can I really run the full 1024 pixels on one port at the max fps (whatever that is) or do I need to reduce the number of pixels per port in order to run at a higher fps?

docs.google.com

F48V1 Manual v1.00

F48 Differential Pixel Controller v1.01 (includes up to Firmware v2.04) Pixelcontroller.com Written and Edited by: Jonathan DePlanche TABLE OF CONTENTS SECTION 1 - OVERVIEW SECTION 2 - POWER SECTION 3 - DATA SECTION 4 - SETTINGS/CONFIGURATIONS SECTION 5 - FIRMWARE UPGRADE OR RE...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

HouseOutline1.jpg
 
the pixel limit for 20 FPS (1360 pixels) and 40FPS (680 pixels) is controlled by the number of data bits per pixel. An RGB pixel uses 24 data bits. An RGBW pixel uses 32 data bits per pixel. That means for each frame rate the RGBW pixels would have 33% fewer pixels for the same frame rate. With that said, controllers place additional constraints caused by internal buffering and moving data from one bus to another. That is where the odd numbers for the F48 come from.
 
The limits that Martin mentions are based on the speed at which the pixels can input data, which is 800,000 bits per second (i.e. 1.25uS per bit). That rate is a fixed value from the ws281x specifications. Each pixel is 24 bits long, or 30uS per pixel. Dividing that number into 25ms (for 40fps) gives 833, which people reduce down to 680 for various technical reasons.

To summarize, the numbers that Martin gave are a result of the pixel specifications, and all controllers driving ws281x pixels will be bound by those limits (if not lower limits due to specific controller/firmware design decisions).
 
Thank you both. I did some googling and indeed those WS281x work at 800kbps. With 1 color using 8 bits, that's 100k color updates per second. So for an RGB pixel that's 33,333 pixel updates per second and for an RGBW 25,000 pixels updates per second. With the F48 allowing up to 1024 pixels per bank, you could update an RGB string at 33,333/1024=32fps and an RGBW at 25,000/1024=24fps.I guess the F48 or xLights rounds that down to 20fps (big rounding, especially for RGB).

If you want to get 40fps, you can only have 33,333/40=833 RGB pixels but as @P. Short pointed out, other (F48) limitation reduce that to 680 pixels. That still leaves me with 2 questions, though.

1) The manual for the F48v1 doesn't say anything about fps while the manual for the F48v4 does mention it. See screenshot below. It says for 704 pixels or less you can do 40fps. For the max (1024, I assume) it's 20fps. Since the manual for the F48v1 doesn't say anything, I assume it can only run at 20fps for any length of 1-1024 pixels.

2) What would you do if you had a 20x1000 matrix (actually 2 of them) as shown in the green picture? Would you cut it in the middle to control the upper 1000 pixels with the existing upper connector and control the lower 1000 pixels with the lower existing connector? Then I don't have to solder connectors on, just cut the cable. Each cable would be connected to one port on the F48. Does that even work (I think it does but it would be an expensive mistake if it doesn't).
Or would you do three cuts to have 4 sections of 500 LEDs. That means I have to solder on two connectors. I am a bit concerned as those are supposedly 24AWG cables. Though I suspect that the long (vertical) runs are 24AWG and the single "horizontal" run at the bottom (which carries the main power and data) is actually 22 or 21AWG (I don't have the matrix yet so I just go by the picture, but Ray Wu said it's 24AWG, probably referring to the entire net, not that one cable on the side).
 

Attachments

  • F48v4FpsLimit1.png
    F48v4FpsLimit1.png
    54.6 KB · Views: 1
  • Matrix1.png
    Matrix1.png
    410 KB · Views: 1
I keep string length down to 500 pixels/ I would use four ports for your matrix.

Your calculations are missing interframe gap time and string reset time.
 
munu said:
white F48 1.02? .................. They only say max is 1024 per port. Actually, it seems more complicated, as 3 ports (1 port per bank) need to share 1024 pixels. It might not be smart to assign 1022 to bank 1 and 1 to bank 2 and 3. But it would allow me to just cut the matrix in half, then use 4 ports (1000 for the upper part of matrix 1, 1000 for the lower part of matrix 1, 1000 for the upper part of matrix 2, 1000 for the lower part of matrix 2).
Click to expand...
Yes.
1722762261379.jpeg1722762285918.jpeg
1722762296744.jpeg1722762308207.jpeg

That's the F48 version slideshow, related to this video I did on the F16v3:
Ironically I made the F48 slides up before the F16 and never recorded it for Youtube.... wasted time whoops.


There is a way to get past the 'limit' of 1024 on the Falcons. But I really don't want you to do that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top