Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bethlehem, PA
    Posts
    884
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Hello all,

    I have a quick question. What are the risks of using metal tomato cages for mini trees if I'm not using GFI.

    I read some of the other posts with a lot of electrical jargon that was WAY over my head.
    I've also seen that it is highly recommended to use GFI.

    I have a small display (24 channels) so what would getting GFI ready mean. Do I just have to by a GFI outlet and put that in place?

    Any information for the layman would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    As always, Thanks for any info!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cedar Park (Austin), TX
    Posts
    148
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    The risk of using outlets which are not GFI protected is electrocution. This is true whether indoors or outdoors. The risks are generally higher outdoors due to the potential for a damp or wet environment. Using a metal structure enhances that risk because if there's an exposed live element touching it, you have an entire cage that's energized, not just a small piece of wire.

    Adding GFI protection is generally as simple as replacing the outlet with a GFI outlet. (That's assuming your electrical system is grounded at the outlet. Some older ones aren't) If you're not comfortable with that, you can get extension cords which have GFIs built into them, but I think they're pricey.

    I personally would never connect my lights to circuits which weren't protected. This hobby isn't worth losing my life or even injuring myself or someone else. I know some feel GFIs are a nuisance because they trip under damp conditions, but that's the point of them! Would you consider your smoke alarm a nuisance because it went off because there was just a "small" fire?

    Mark

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts
    3,752
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkL View Post
    That's assuming your electrical system is grounded at the outlet.
    GFCI’s don’t rely on earth ground. HOT and NEUTRAL is all that’s needed. GFCI’s measure the current on the HOT and NEUTRAL wires. If there is a difference of more than 8 milliamps (assuming that it’s going somewhere else), the breaker will open,
    [I]A mediocre person tells. A good person explains. A superior person demonstrates. A great person inspires others to see for themselves.[/I]

    <a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide my display details ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><img src="http://www.vixenlights.com/sig/sig_h.php/128/All.gif" border="0" alt="" /></div><a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide DIYC Links ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><b>Chat link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php</a>
    <b>Christmas Wiki link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php</a>
    <b>File Library link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php</a>
    <b>Who's in chat?</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php</a>
    </div>

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bethlehem, PA
    Posts
    884
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieHorning View Post
    GFCI’s don’t rely on earth ground. HOT and NEUTRAL is all that’s needed. GFCI’s measure the current on the HOT and NEUTRAL wires. If there is a difference of more than 8 milliamps (assuming that it’s going somewhere else), the breaker will open,
    With this being said, the electrical system does not have to be "grounded at the outlet"??
    As always, Thanks for any info!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Plainview, Mn
    Posts
    1,073
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak3 View Post

    I have a small display (24 channels) so what would getting GFI ready mean. Do I just have to by a GFI outlet and put that in place?

    Any information for the layman would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    You can buy plug in GFCI adapters. You plug them into a grounded outlet, plug the extension cord into it, and you have GFCI.

    Home depot has them. Brand is Shock Shield part No 90265. I think about $13. Rated at 15 amps. For short term use, this would be fine.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    7,670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak3 View Post
    With this being said, the electrical system does not have to be "grounded at the outlet"??
    A ground conductor is not required for a GFCI to function properly. As Ernie stated the GFCI monitors the current leaving and returning through the hot and neutral conductors. This does not mean you can install a GFCI and leave the ground conductor off the receptacle. A new wiring installation would require a ground conductor. Wiring installations from decades ago may not have a ground conductor. In this case a GFCI can be installed without the required ground conductor.

    On a side note these older installations that do not contain a ground conductor must utilize 2 prong receptacles unless there is GFCI protection. If there is GFCI protection, whether via a breaker or receptacle, 3 prong receptacles can be installed in a non grounded system.


    GFCI protection is a legal and moral requirement for all outdoor wiring. There are a few exceptions but they should only be considered by a licensed electrician.
    Thanks,
    Brian, your friendly site Admin.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts
    3,752
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosill View Post
    If there is GFCI protection, whether via a breaker or receptacle, 3 prong receptacles can be installed in a non grounded system.
    Though you can do it and it is legal, I really hate when this is done and the ungrounded outlets aren’t labeled so. Appliances that have a ground terminal typically do so because the housing is made of a conductive material. This means that if the internal isolation fails, the case could be hot. Relying on the GFCI can be dangerous, because GFCI’s sometimes fail also.
    [I]A mediocre person tells. A good person explains. A superior person demonstrates. A great person inspires others to see for themselves.[/I]

    <a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide my display details ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><img src="http://www.vixenlights.com/sig/sig_h.php/128/All.gif" border="0" alt="" /></div><a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide DIYC Links ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><b>Chat link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php</a>
    <b>Christmas Wiki link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php</a>
    <b>File Library link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php</a>
    <b>Who's in chat?</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php</a>
    </div>

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bethlehem, PA
    Posts
    884
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgeeny View Post
    You can buy plug in GFCI adapters. You plug them into a grounded outlet, plug the extension cord into it, and you have GFCI.

    Home depot has them. Brand is Shock Shield part No 90265. I think about $13. Rated at 15 amps. For short term use, this would be fine.
    I tried looking online for that part and couldn't find it.
    As always, Thanks for any info!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts
    3,752
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak3 View Post
    I tried looking online for that part and couldn't find it.
    This is just a random website, but this will give you an idea about what to look for. http://www.budgetlighting.com/store/...i_catalog.html
    [I]A mediocre person tells. A good person explains. A superior person demonstrates. A great person inspires others to see for themselves.[/I]

    <a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide my display details ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><img src="http://www.vixenlights.com/sig/sig_h.php/128/All.gif" border="0" alt="" /></div><a href="#" onclick="return(showhide(this));">Click here to show/hide DIYC Links ...</a>
    <script language="javascript">function showhide(anc){ for(; ; ){ if(!anc.nextSibling) break; if(anc.nextSibling.nodeName == "DIV") break; anc = anc.nextSibling; }//<br />
    var Y='block', N='none', det=anc.nextSibling; //<br />
    if (!det) det=document.getElementById('details'); det.style.display=(det.style.display!=N)?N:Y; return false;}</script><div id="details" style="display:none;"><br /><b>Chat link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/addonchat.php</a>
    <b>Christmas Wiki link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php</a>
    <b>File Library link</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/dynamics/index.php</a>
    <b>Who's in chat?</b> - <a href="http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php" target="_blank">http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/chat/info.php</a>
    </div>

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bethlehem, PA
    Posts
    884
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Powering Mini Tree Question and GFI

    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieHorning View Post
    This is just a random website, but this will give you an idea about what to look for. http://www.budgetlighting.com/store/...i_catalog.html
    Ah cool, thanks!

    Also, you said earlier that the outlet has to be grounded to use one of these devices? Or does this fall under the earlier comments in that grounding is not really involved in GFCI? Would I be limited to a 15A device or should I use a 20A rated device. The load of the Ren24 will be greater than 15A at times. ??

    Why is it that when I search GFI/GFCI I only get surge protectors returned. Is this the same type of thing or does this only protect against power spikes as opposed to overall current irregularities?
    Last edited by Superfreak3; 10-13-2008 at 02:17 PM.
    As always, Thanks for any info!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •