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Thread: recent disappointing activities

  1. #1
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    Unhappy recent disappointing activities

    As a DIYC.com rule “If you disagree with another member, respond to the subject, not the person” so that’s what this is, I will try to be polite and direct (no “hidden” jabs) I just ask that you bring an open mind, patience, and understanding.
    As a relative newbie with the hope to someday help others enjoy a hobby as much as some (unfortunately a surprisingly large amount from members no logger here going through my pm list) this saddens me. While I do enjoy my membership to here and multiple other forms/chats, I think each has its peace to offer to our hobby. (aus’s intro pdfs being an example of something unique to a site)
    I know that there is some water trying to boil, but the only ones that are going to really get burnt by it, are the new people trying to or looking to start up. So if at all possible I ask that we remember the reasons (I believe) we do this, to help others (members or not) make something for others still (children and the rest of the public) to enjoy.
    As a member here are some recent disturbing things (IMHO)
    1. “Keep your site promotion links over at your site along with your Renard Plus friends!” it’s the vender arena and I thought this was “A place where Vendors can announce new products. This is not an area for customer service complaints or any other complaints. “ I know some forms just don’t allow venders for very similar reasons, but some form of rules and simple enforcement on posts seem like a much better way. Something like: “if a post is believed or viewed to be offensive to members or this site, they will be modified or taken down by the moderates. Heck the ability to remove / modify is already there. Big takeaway seems to be a hypocrisy between mods and users, while mods have the right to do things users don’t I believe users feel much more comfortable if they don’t. its ezer to lead by example than by rule.
    2. Is there a list of sites that are not really appropriate to link to (and or just how bad is it), EG: “Renard Plus friends!” indicates some direct level of hostility on something I thought was mostly past. I have been warned elsewhere about linking users outside of their garden but not really ever here, but it feels like there is tension for or towered anyone that links to certain places over here recently, so it would be good to just get those out in the open and not just small little jabs here and there that make users wonder what they may be stepping in if they try to be ether helpful or inquisitive.
    3. Bringing up the past, “DIYC operates a three strike policy. Users will be warned a maximum of three times for any and all offenses in a six month period. If the need arises for a fourth warning a temporary ban will be put in place of between 1 to 7 days. ” I’m not so sure that’s what was enforced, and that I believe has caused more heat on the fire mentioned above. As a member this was and is a burning problem, that I believe did a lot to limit the number of posts on the forms after it was done by other members, this I’m certain was not intentional but there it is anyway.
    4.a. “Members are asked to respect the copyright of other users, sites, media, etc. “ I believe this is part of what dirknerkle may (or not) have been talking about. Copyright can get ugly fast and is a truly complicated matter. Things went pretty smoothly for a while but as DIYC.com has in the recent past expressed concern for its own material posted to it (perfectly within its own rights to do so) others doing posts are agen having more reasons to look more deeply as to whether it’s something they want to do.
    4.b. And while I’m on the subject a Google search of “copyright site:doityourselfchristmas.com” did not bring me to any meaningful information as to what just is and is not the copyright on any part of the material posted here, perhaps some clarification on the terms of use would be helpful.
    5.a As always one of my big beefs is the refusal to allow “manufactured products” (AKA built renard boards). There only allowed to be sold / (resold) on the forms (as rules state elseware) but no one can build them to resale them (specifically I’m referring to some of the group buy rules). I still contend that this is limiting to newer members or members not as ready to make the jump to soldering, perhaps on their first year. I got started my fist year by buying used built renard boards and they provided me with a great starting point. But alas there not always as much supply as there is a demand, but I don’t think any rules need to be made to artificially decrees a supply for users / members. One other site had that at the time I was starting and because of that, it made me move onto renard hardware that was much more available. I hate to think people moving away from here just because the initial supply is not available for them to start.
    5.b. And I also contend that you don’t need to solder something or anything at all to be a DIY er. Its (to me) more about finding parts and ways that works for you, vs a commercial user that just uses what a company provides and uses it only in the way that they expressly intended.
    6. “A few people have been banned because of their actions. It happens everyday everywhere. No big deal. “those people are a part of our community and its definitely a big deal to members here as well as elsewhere. I know the mods dont take it lightly but it feels / comes across as a not cared about set of actions, and that bothers a lot of us, and that’s part of why there is knocking going on, the hope is that it will get better.
    +. The loss of things previously mentioned like a joke form is also something that just doesn’t feel like it’s in the spirit of a community.

    At the end of the day it’s just not as FRIENDLY as it once appeared to be, and for many of us that’s just disappointing and sad, but we will all move on, some of us just want to move on in direction that we ourselves believe is better.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    I have to ask,
    How is it not FRIENDLY anymore?

    All this seems to stem from 3 people being banned. Is that why it is not Friendly anymore?

    What am I missing?
    Thanks,
    Brian, your friendly site Admin.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosill View Post
    I have to ask,
    How is it not FRIENDLY anymore?

    All this seems to stem from 3 people being banned. Is that why it is not Friendly anymore?

    What am I missing?
    Stems from 3 people being banned? Maybe. Sadly, that's not what it has become.

    I believe the part about it not being friendly has to do with the fact that people are afraid to post certain things that may be read as promoting other sites and face discrimination from the admins/moderators. My post count has gone down dramatically since the 3 bans largely due to the fact that I greatly respect what those 3 have done for the community, but also because of the way things were handled. They didn't receive any warnings as per the DIYC rules, and were simply banned. I'm afraid of being banned for simply speaking my mind, or linking to some of their new developments. THIS IS NOT FRIENDLY.

    A perfect case in point was Dave's post where you basically told him to stay away from here because he didn't want to post his DIY-U stuff on a site that is so touchy w/ copyright issues. He simply said he was concerned about those copyright issues which got 3 people banned and you basically told him to get out. How can that be considered friendly in any way shape or form?

    I think Bobby's post is great and outlined a lot of very valid discussion points, none of which you addressed.
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  5. #4
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    Well if everyone is afraid to post because they are fearful of being banned then they have no idea what really happened when those 3 were banned. I have not come out and spoken of all the details because it is really no ones business. Just like if I banned you I would not speak about it publicly, its between you and I. I am not here to smear anyone. There are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine and somewhere in the middle is the truth. I would ask all to not judge me without having intimate knowledge as to what happened with those 3. Take notice how everytime this comes up it is in response to something someone else has posted. I did not start this but I will not sit by and watch as people come here and take jabs at me and DIYC not matter how steadily they balance right on the line of inside and outside the rules.

    I can assure you that no one has ever been banned simply because they disagreed with me. There was more to it if they were banned. Take the OP in this thread. No I did not respond to all his points as I had a question first. I did not ban him either. Nor have I sent him a threatening PM or any other form of communication. As a matter of fact everytime he comes in the chat room I welcome him with a welcome message, as I do all members if I am there. I usually get the cold shoulder but it does not bother me. So what makes me so frieghtening that members are afraid to post?

    Again, when it comes to the post you are commenting about, you only know the side you read or maybe the side you get from the other party. Not my side. But you decide it is me who is not friendly. If you feel that way I am sorry but I am not here to be everyones friend. I have a site to administer and sometimes I have to make tough decisions. I am not looking for your pitty. I have been the admin here at DIYC since somewhere around 2006 or 2007. That is 6 or 7 years. I made a decision to ban a few people and I am a ban person who is not friendly. What about all the other things that have gone on? I guess no one remembers anything from the past, only that 3 people were banned earlier in the year. I guess no one realizes they do not have the full story. I know this because I have not spoken to anyone about it.

    When have I ever threatened anyone because they did not agree with my view or perspective? When have I ever banned anyone because they did nothing more than disagree with me? There are over 13,000 people here and I banned 3. I guess the odds are against me in that one.
    Thanks,
    Brian, your friendly site Admin.

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  7. #5
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    I have just re read the Ren32 thread and the original post was a product announcement by a longstanding member. Yes incorrect grammar was used but we are all do that in forums, well I do some times but that is besides the point. The moderators post on the thread in my reading did not say take your product elsewhere it was more of a post that this product is the OPs announcement and to respect the announcement.

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  8. #6
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    IMHO, one of the main reasons that a lot of members have gone silent, or away, is due to exactly to the scenario just described. The 'Company' side of things is kept confidential, which I agree with, but unfortunately may undermine the trust that members have in the inate fairness of the 'Company'. There is also a perception (which I share) that there have been more than 3 members banned over the life of the forum, but apparently no one wishes to push the issue. What started out as a wonderful cooperative and fun place to visit, learn and schmooze is fading away. I think if I was on the 'board of directors' so to speak, I might ask the 'Company Management Team' where all the old timers have gone? I would venture a guess that 90% of the posts over the last 6 months have been made by new members. That didn't use to be the case................. Is it the evolution of new technology, or is it just not much fun any more................ if not, why?

  9. #7
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    Whatever happened to just talking and sharing blinky/flashy? I want to know more about the subject matter more than the politics. IMHO. Merry Christmas!

  10. #8
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    Quote Originally Posted by rstehle View Post
    IMHO, one of the main reasons that a lot of members have gone silent, or away, is due to exactly to the scenario just described. The 'Company' side of things is kept confidential, which I agree with, but unfortunately may undermine the trust that members have in the inate fairness of the 'Company'. There is also a perception (which I share) that there have been more than 3 members banned over the life of the forum, but apparently no one wishes to push the issue. What started out as a wonderful cooperative and fun place to visit, learn and schmooze is fading away. I think if I was on the 'board of directors' so to speak, I might ask the 'Company Management Team' where all the old timers have gone? I would venture a guess that 90% of the posts over the last 6 months have been made by new members. That didn't use to be the case................. Is it the evolution of new technology, or is it just not much fun any more................ if not, why?
    And to answer that, the "old timers" are still here. The lack of posting would be evolution of technology for the most part. People come into the hobby and learn, then they get to help and teach. So, a lot of it is a "pass the torch" scenario, at least for the older stuff. The new stuff, Pixels ect. a new group has morphed into the DIY scene, and some of us "old timers" are not up to date with the technology.

    Having fun? I'm having just as much fun now as I did years ago. I enjoy helping folks, always have, and try to everyday here.

    I will continue to do so.
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  12. #9
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    Default Re: recent disappointing activities

    I hear ya Wayne !
    This is too much fun to see these fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne J View Post
    And to answer that, the "old timers" are still here. The lack of posting would be evolution of technology for the most part. People come into the hobby and learn, then they get to help and teach. So, a lot of it is a "pass the torch" scenario, at least for the older stuff. The new stuff, Pixels ect. a new group has morphed into the DIY scene, and some of us "old timers" are not up to date with the technology.

    Having fun? I'm having just as much fun now as I did years ago. I enjoy helping folks, always have, and try to everyday here.

    I will continue to do so.

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  14. #10
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    Arrow moving forward

    “I have to ask,
    How is it not FRIENDLY anymore?

    All this seems to stem from 3 people being banned. Is that why it is not Friendly anymore?

    What am I missing?”
    I was trying to indicate what I believed to be some of the problems in my post but I’ll try to answer this some more. Yes a lot of this did start with the banning of 3 users, but loss that that may be, more was felt by those of use still here. For instance I’ve kept mostly to myself my feelings on a lot of these matters because I feared being banned from this great site for bringing things up publicly. I made this thread and left for a few hours with the full expectation that I might get back with no access. It was a hard chose to make but in the end I believed that staying silent just wasn’t a way forward, and near constant underhanded bickering needed to be address more head on. Now the mods may truly believe that this is an open place to talk (with no threats to members being banned) but as members the feeling is that it’s not. This is a unintended consequence of the bans. But its more than just those, it’s in subtext and other little spots. Take this for example “ I did not start this but I will not sit by and watch as people come here and take jabs at me and DIYC not matter how steadily they balance right on the line of inside and outside the rules.” It may be meant one way but it comes off as a vialed threat to others. That’s not to say you don’t have the right to defend yourselves or this site, but it’s the way its worded that can give people a pause.
    There is no doubt that this site has a good track record for not banning users, and it’s also a lot of speculation as to what went down and why because the full story is unknown to most. But that’s not the most troubling part of the bans. There is in my mind some real troubling questions that were only brought up with the bans. One of those is who has the copyright to material on here? Is it the poster, is it the site itself, is it public domain. All of these answers will make some people happy and others angry, but on a hole it would be good to know just who has content rights? (like republishing) there is more than just copyright, as jokes are somewhat off limits now but no one really seems to know what or how much or where hummer can be, and that’s just one other quick example.
    I believe there are a number of people that have similar views as Mat er dadd. “I'm afraid of being banned for simply speaking my mind, or linking to some of their new developments.” There are a surprisingly large number of people that know me that have come to me with very similar concerns and those that don’t know me likely have gotten similar concerns. I’d bet it’s not the sites intention to give people these feelings, but like it or not that’s something that members have read meaning from posts made and threads movement. This problem I thought would go away quickly but alas it has not, I think something needs to change to get back in a better direction.
    “Take notice how everytime this comes up it is in response to something someone else has posted” one of the recent hotspots was someone obviously posting about a possibly very valid concern about copyright. Yes there may or not have been some snide undertones to it, but I believe that a better way to move forward would be to “If you disagree with another member, respond to the subject, not the person” and with any luck we could start really getting things resolved not just repeated flare-ups. Agen underlying things need to change.
    “As a matter of fact everytime he comes in the chat room I welcome him with a welcome message, as I do all members if I am there. I usually get the cold shoulder but it does not bother me. So what makes me so frieghtening that members are afraid to post?” im sorry you feel a cold shoulder, I open a lot of tabs (20+) every time I open my browser, one of those tabs is diyc chat, and by the time I make my way to that tab (after reading news or whatnot) its ether timed out or a lot of time has passed so I don’t respond to older welcome messages as not to fill chat with messages to users that may no longer be actively looking at it.

    To RichF, sorry to say this out of a PM but I’m more of the belief that communication should be open as others might want to chime in. (after all this is a forum) there are lots more threads with problems not just the ren32 thread. One with witch this has more context is the “DIGWDF Store Announcement” thread. If you put dirknerkle announcement about diyu agenst other product announcements more may become clear.
    To rstehle mostly agree, it is the “companys” rights to do something but that something may be seen as a meaningful position to its users / members. And unfortunately it can ripple through a lot of seemingly unconnected parts. It may be best to try and address those head on.
    To others that believe that this is all just for drama and we should just drop it: we all care about this community that we are involved in, and like everything else it’s not really about right or wrong, it’s about feeling herd. It’s about expressing ones opinions and listing to others, and having meaningful discussions about our and others ideas. Yes copyright might not be a part that you’re interested in, perhaps wireless means nothing to you, and pixels can go bleep off. But for some, these individual parts matter. There is a place and a time, but instead of doing it at the right place and the right time, and do to some added things like fear, this stiff is cropping up all over in the wrong places and the wrong times. We all want to get back to better things and better times, but as long as things are festering and not resolved politics will get in our way. Politics is just another way to say different ideas from different people being discussed to find the best \ a better \ a middle ground to move onto the next set of problems and or ideas.

    Mostly in the end we need to find a way to heal, and that’s not the way things have been going, and that’s what I’m trying to face straight on, as uncomfortable as it may be we need to deal with these problems. This thread was started with some of my concerns, I hope to see them addressed (as in atlest discussed openly). And as that happens maybe others can voice their opinions and concerns here (in this hopefully safe understanding thread) as well. And with any luck we can start to really move past some of this and get back to some magic (or bickering about pixels vs traditional displays, whatever floats your boats)

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