The new group buy rules...

[Gebbinn]

I became a supporting member, because I believe in what this site stands for. I have learned so much, had so many questions answered, given of my time as I could and many other things. I was a non supporting member until I think November of last season, so approximately a year. I knew about the supporting member, and always wanted to do it, but was never really motivated. I finally became a supporting member, because I was surfing the forum, printing out some stuff, and ran out of ink. I went on Ebay, bought some ink, and while I had my CC in front of me, I became a supporting member.

If I had been required to become a supporting member in order to participate in Group Buys last year, I would have become a supporting member without question or complaint. I know I saved over 300$ on my first group buy here, what is another 20 compared to that savings? I had no real motivation other than my own personal feelings of good will before these rules changed.

Almost all of the group buys that occur on this site, are done in the spring and summer months, so that the people running the buy have time to get everything done, and leave the buyers time to put it all together. I would venture to guess that 95% of all new members join this site in the late fall/winter months like I did, because they are looking for a way to make their displays better. This means that the vast majority of people have 3-6 months to research, ask questions, and decide what they want to do to get into the hobby. 3-6 months is more than enough time to become an addict here, even if they are not actively posting. And if they are likely to participate in a group buy, they have been here long enough to hopefully understand what they are getting into, and know exactly how much money they will be saving by participating in a group buy.
If, after all that, anyone is unwilling to pay the $20 to become a supporting member, then I don't feel they deserve the privilege of participating in any forum activity such as a Group Buy. And if they are a "Johnny come lately" and join the forum in the short period before a GB, and are not willing to pay such a nominal fee (in perspective), then I don't think they really need to be buying in to this hobby anyway at such a juncture, because they don't understand the significant financial dedication it requires.
There will be those who take a stand, and some of them may leave DIYC because of that stand, but I believe that the loss of those few will not significantly impact the forum as a whole.

So, Brian, well done sir, I concur wholeheartedly with this decision, and commend the entire of the committee for their time in coming up with these new rules.

[WWNF911]

FWIW, I have not been as supportive a member as I could've been. I admittingly have not frequented the site as much as I did in my first year. That said I have still come back and participated and have enjoyed my experience here despite any reasons I have not to. I would like to say however that the $20.00 I pay here in my opinion is worth it to me just for the ability to use Vixen alone. Not to Mention the amount of time and effort it takes to create it. Those are my two cents worth.

[aussiephil]

Brian (macrosill), you and I may not have always seen eye to eye and on the GB rule I do believe you are wrong, Supporting members getting first option maybe but to say only is wrong.
However I do think the no-offsite GB's rule is a solid direction amd no doubt a bit of a tough call.

Having said that I do truly understand EXACTLY the space you are in as I am currently struggling with the same issue of my site having grown past it's current hosting solution and requiring potentially significant outlay to fix.
The supporting membership is in itself a good idea and something my own members are advocating that i do, I am concerned though that this would have an effect of making people choose to be on one site whereas the fact remains that a significant number of people end up being members at many sites as they all have bits of information. I don't want people to choose but contribute where and when they think they can....

I do feel though that not being able to participate in a group buy because I am not a Supporting Member would be an insult to everything I continue to contribute to the hobby in general and the DIYC by continuing to be an active member. Just making the couple videos on Vixen3 AND posting them here for the benefit of YOUR members has in my opinion ADDED more than $20 of value to the site.

I could have said "If you want to see how to videos for Vixen3 come over to my site, oh by the way you will need to be a member" .... that would have been a load of crap as even today I see US ALL being part of one hobby.
Out of respect for DIYC i resist linking to my own forum and I don't have it in my signature block for the same reason.

I lot of people have spoken of bandwidth and server costs, yep they are true they are not that cheap and if Brian is recovering cost through supporting memberships then maybe i should charge back support time and effort when assisting DIYC Members asking questions about E68x controllers etc on my forum. Myself and members spend time educating people for the benefit of DIYC... mmmmm

Did you all read the last paragraph and get up in arms and say b#$s^(^T.... I'm going to tear his head off.......

I would no more advocate doing the above in any way as I have ALREADY said ... WE ALL ARE PART OF ONE HOBBY... I will gladly help ANYONE - ANYTIME with answers or referring them to subject matter experts regardless of forum.... Many members on ALL the forums could take a leaf out of that book. Too many times do I see newbies (and some old timers) taken in directions they should NEVER go due to blinkered views on a forum.

I will no doubt cop some heat for this post but had to speak a small bit of my mind due to some of the myopic viewpoints expressed in this thread that indicated that a support member was instantly more valuable than technical contributors.... that my friends is a pure load of bull... without those technical contributors this forum would have no past and no future.

Phil

[TimW]

I do feel though that not being able to participate in a group buy because I am not a Supporting Member would be an insult to everything I continue to contribute to the hobby in general and the DIYC by continuing to be an active member.

Phil, really?

As far as I see it this has nothing to do with what anyone contributes.... it has to do with hosting costs and recouping them so DIYC remains viable. The opt-in supporting member system and making a discretionary financial contribution to help the community out does not seem to be making ends meet. Brian is well in order to examine alternatives IMHO.

So I offer the following points (sorry if I'm covering old ground):

1) You know better than I do the $ cost of this hobby! Where does $20 sit in the broader scheme of investment for the year. Anyone in a group buy - how much will they spend to get a display up and running - and what proportion is $20 to enable that (Particularly if it keeps DIYC running)? It doesn't matter how many other sites they frequent... if they want to share financially in the benefit of the DIYC community shouldn't they contribute financially to its cost of operation?

2) If participants get financial benefit from participating in a group buy this is the most logical place to cover the operating costs of the site. It keeps all the other 'open source' and information sharing aspects of the DIYC community 'free' (albeit artificially from a cost perspective) . Group buys are the one tangible point at which people can weigh up $ value... and if supporting membership and the cost savings associated with information on DIYC doesn't weigh up at that point I suggest they are not doing the sums right.

3) How many participants in group buys are NOT like you (technical or other type of long term DIYC contributor?). Are these newer people (with a sense of entitlement that seems to be ever increasing as I get older ) entitled to these privileges without supporting the environment that creates them - or should Brian just pay for them out of the goodness of his heart? I hear Brian is a good fellow... but come on.

4) It is still possible to participate actively in this community without paying anything to anyone... unless you want to get the financial benefit of a group buy... sounds fair to me.

Just making the couple videos on Vixen3 AND posting them here for the benefit of YOUR members has in my opinion ADDED more than $20 of value to the site.

It has often been stated - everyone who posts here adds value (even if its comedic....!). Real question is who pays for hosting. Simple as that.

had to speak a small bit of my mind due to some of the myopic viewpoints expressed in this thread that indicated that a support member was instantly more valuable than technical contributors.... that my friends is a pure load of bull... without those technical contributors this forum would have no past and no future.

You know I'm with you on the value of technical contributors (yourself included).

But that's not an issue caused by the new group buy rule. The current situation (free for technical contributors and non contributors) does not discriminate between them. Neither does the new rule (supporting member status for technical contributors and non contributors).

Bottom line: Without supporting members, Brian himself is paying for the technical conversation, and for the privilege everyone else enjoys by seeing and learning from that conversation. I'd prefer he didn't have to by himself- and linking member subscription to $ savings associated with a group buy would be a fair way to offset that.

I haven't heard a better option yet to address the problem at hand......

Tim

[Imperialkid]

The best way to spread Christmas cheer, is singing loud for all to hear!!

[g2ktcf]

Bottom line: Without supporting members, Brian himself is paying for the technical conversation, and for the privilege everyone else enjoys by seeing and learning from that conversation. I'd prefer he didn't have to by himself- and linking member subscription to $ savings associated with a group buy would be a fair way to offset that.

I haven't heard a better option yet to address the problem at hand......

And Tim, that is just the point. I am on the Advisory Committee and although we cannot share the details of our discussions, I can tell you that no option was left out in the, sometimes heated discussions.

[Macrosill]

OK. Its been 4 days and 10 pages, 96 posts.

I just want everyone to know that this was not an easy decision to make. Unfortunately reality comes in to play here again. There is no way to solve the issues in the spotlight and continue to make everyone happy all the time. I do my best but it is not realistic.

I also want to say that I respect everyone's perspective. Regardless if you agree or disagree with the path I am going down I still respect your perspective.

Let me close this thread with the following statement:

Thank you for letting my know your opinion on this, I really do appreciate the input and am always open to reasonable discussion.

Thank You to all!