Burning Down The House?

[Michael]

I am wondering if I can get some advise from others on a problem I have.

DISCLAIMER IN REVERSE: I know I should seek a professional and I will not hold you responsible for any comments.

During my smoke testing of a new enclosure I heard a lot of those nasty snapping and sparking sounds when I plugged in the 110vac into the wall outlet and noticed the cord was a little warm. Well I check my wiring again and of course being a software programmer I wanted to reproduce the error to see if I could find the cause, so I plugged it in again, but this time into a surge strip. Well the results were about the same, but the surge strip breaker popped very quickly.

I did not think much of it other than, ok, I have a wire wrong, lets fix it and keep going. Then my logic processors starting kicking in and I wondered how on the same socket I heard popping, then it later worked. I tested the socket and found out that the top outlet worked, but the bottom one did not. Hmmm... Did I blow a socket? Go check breaker box and nothing is tripped (THIS HAD ME WORRIED). I pulled the socket out and found that it is wired on 2 different circuits. That is nice for load balancing, but scary when doing work and you do not think about it being on 2 circuits.

Anyway, I start tracing and found 5 outlets in the kitchen with the bottom plug dead, but no breaker is tripped. My fear is that I burned a wire in the wall and it is sitting there waiting to start a fire. The only thing I can think of to do is get out the saw-zaw and start taking down drywall to find where the circuit is broken.

Should I call in an electrician and have the whole system replaced and claim it on insurance as a defective system? I could upgrade to 200amps at the same time....

I am open to ideas anyone might have.

Why did I start doing this light project anyway? Oh I remember, it was those smiles on the kids faces like last night when they watched the pumpkins sing.

- Michael

[NogginBoink]

It's not likely that you have a fire hazard. More likely, one of the outlets upstream of the one you were using created an open circuit.

If you can identify the breaker to which these outlets are attached, you can turn off the breaker and use everyday circuit continuity checks to find where the fault is. My bet is that you're looking at replacing a forty-two cent outlet.

Edit: don't claim a wiring defect on the insurance. Insurance fraud will land you in jail.

[BillAd]

Michael,

Did you check to see if 1/2 of the outlet is wired to a switch? (and the switch is turned off). I would be surprised if you could pull enough amps to melt the wiring in the wall before you would burn up the traces on the PCB or melt the wire in the plug you are using. Odd. Let us know what you find...

Bill

[Ronp]

Also did you trip a gfi circuit somewere?

[Michael]

Very good comments, than you for taking the time to help.

The house was built in 1963 so no GFI anywhere in the house except where I have added new outlets for outside and one in the bathroom. I forgot to say that I checked them already, but good guess.

I do not believe there are any switches that control these outlets, at least I have not found one yet and I know what all switches in this house do. I do not think they would switch kitchen counter outlets

Comment about insurance: When I went to add a subpannel the local hardware guy said he did not carry my type of circuit breakers anymore because he would not sell them. Too many problems with them not tripping in the past.

I pulled what I thought would be the first outlet in the run. I found the way they wired it to be what I expected, 3 wired together with a wirenut with a short wire going to the outlet. I was impressed with the type of wirenut used, it was like a professional perminate seal not a twist on type. I could not remove it easily to test the wires. The wire was not hot. Now that I think about it, I will pull all of the outlets because I do not know where the run really starts, but the one that I plugged into was the end because it only had one wire.

How do I easily tell which breaker they are supose to be on? I have a circuit tracer, but it only works when there is power on it to plug in the beep transmitter.

- Michael

[katie]

I would hire an electrition to diagnose the problem for you. Most times they to not have to tear down drywall to fix it. At least then you know your safe.

[WakeFan]

My grandparent's house has had several outlets go bad. Sounds like the problem to me. To find the bad one, I just kept trying ones close around, and if they didn't work pull them out and check the connections and voltage with a meter. (had to repair 3 in last 5 years) Hope it helps, I'm not even close to being a professional.

[xmus]

My grandparent's house has had several outlets go bad. Sounds like the problem to me. To find the bad one, I just kept trying ones close around, and if they didn't work pull them out and check the connections and voltage with a meter. (had to repair 3 in last 5 years) Hope it helps, I'm not even close to being a professional.


Mike i agree with WakeFan.
Assuming you don't have pets and kits, get a screw gun, and just open up everything in the room and stretch the recepticals out and start probing everything. If you don't find it there, then start working from room to room.

If you seriously have no idea still, after doing that, then hire a professional at that point :(

[Elmo2resc]

I'm not sure exactly what type of outlet you have. Modern outlets have a hot, neutral and ground. It is important that they are wired the same way on every outlet. It makes no sense why you have half of each outlet not working unless the tabs have been broken off that links the two together. Then you would have to feed both half’s. Generally you put the black lead (hot) to the gold screw, white (neutral) to the silver screw and green to the ground. I have also seen circuits wired that share the neutral. This can be done but it is very important that the outlets or devices sharing are on the same leg. You can get into trouble moving breakers in the panel if not done correctly. Electric wiring can be easy to do, but if you’re not sure what to look out for it can be dangerous. Just because something works in the outlet doesn't mean it is wired right and or safe. You should get an outlet tester to make sure you’re wired correctly. They are only a few dollars. Some time wires just come loose. I don’t think you melted a wire or burned up a plug, but it is possible. I am a home builder, not an electrician. I hire them to do the work. I would recommend you hire one too. Jerome

[Michael]

Problem solved!

An electrican friend came over and I had him puzzled for about an hour. We traced all the wires and checked everything we could think of.

Then we took off the breaker panel cover and metered each breaker where the wire goes in and found one that was tripped, but the breaker switch did not show it as being tripped. Reset the breaker and power was restored. I should have listened to the guy at ACE hardware a few years ago when he said to replace the whole panel and breakers because they do not trip properly.
I think I will also identify and label every outlet in my house to which circuit it is on so next time I will not have this problem. I keep learning that good documentation saves time.

Thanks to everyone that offered suggestions!

- Michael

[Macrosill]

Let me guess, you have a Federal Pacific panel and breakers????

[zaker]

If it is Federal Pacific, get them replaced. They are terrible and cause lots of problems, as you have seen!

tom

[wjohn]

If it is Federal Pacific, get them replaced. They are terrible and cause lots of problems, as you have seen!

tom

Now there is the voice of experience. Sounds like a good recommendation to me.

New Breaker Panel and a 200 AMp upgrade, I see in your future, Master Luke.