Where to begin?

[bnfmsgeek]

Hi all!
I am new to computer-based control of lights. I am planning an INSIDE display this year. I am not quite sure where to begin. I want to do a display synchronized to music. I can only spend about $100 (preferably less). I only need like 6 channels. I am able to do basic soldering. I can do a little bit of programming, but thats it. I don't need any dimming or anything like that. How do you suggest I begin?

[xmus]

Hi all!
I am new to computer-based control of lights. I am planning an INSIDE display this year. I am not quite sure where to begin. I want to do a display synchronized to music. I can only spend about $100 (preferably less). I only need like 6 channels. I am able to do basic soldering. I can do a little bit of programming, but thats it. I don't need any dimming or anything like that. How do you suggest I begin?

What music do you want to used? Are you picky?

Do you want to go bigger next year? (how much bigger?)

Will you be able to spend more next year?

This is kind of the direction I'm steering you, depending on your answers:
http://www.christmasinshirley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=884&highlight=

[bnfmsgeek]

All good questions!
First let me tell you a little secret: I'm only 14!
As a high-schooler I don't have access to much money, that is why I wish to do it as cheaply as possible. If this year is a success my parents might let me go bigger next year, but probably not much. I don't want to do an outside display because not very people come by our house each day (we're in a small subdivison).I may have more money next year.

And I would rather have my own music , if that's what you're asking.

[xmus]

All good questions!
First let me tell you a little secret: I'm only 14!
As a high-schooler I don't have access to much money, that is why I wish to do it as cheaply as possible. If this year is a success my parents might let me go bigger next year, but probably not much. I don't want to do an outside display because not very people come by our house each day (we're in a small subdivison).I may have more money next year.

And I would rather have my own music , if that's what you're asking.


I'm trilled you are here. This hobby will give you the 411 on computers hardware/software, serial ports protocols, parallel port, AC / DC stuff, as well as all kinds of circuit design. You are in the RIGHT PLACE to learn a TON of stuff.

Now, for 100 bucks..... I could sell you a single XMUS board (16 channel renard) for about 13.xx shipped. The parts to build it would be about $40. So you are at $53 now. You could use RS232 because i assume your computer is in your room, near the controller. You would need some kind of enclosure to put the controller in, $30 worst case, $5 or free if you are creative. The software is free, i assume you already own a computer.
Go to www.ilovewaves.com to download the music free. This would be 16 channels of full dimming, which i know you said you didn't want dimming, but..... You will need a pic programmer as well, that is about 30-40 depending on how fancy you go.

So there you go, $100 bucks, 16 dimmed channels, with PLEANTY of room for expansion next year.

Now the "warning", the Renard design (which is what the "xmus" board is based on) is one of the more complex designs. It has a couple of things that can go wrong when building, and make it hard to debug. But we are a really dedicated community that helps each other, so it's not like you'll be stuck doing it on your own.
Read the "theory of operation document" before you put down your cash:
http://www.ritzfam.com/ChristmasMadness/Renardx16SSR/Release/


I'm not an expert on the other designs such as Olsen (which might be a good choice for you as well). I'm sure others will step up and make lots of other suggestions.....

Again welcome, i wish you were my neighbor, I wish more kids would take an interest in electronics, seriously, it's a good investment of your time!

:)

[Wayne J]

Well you can build a 8 channel controller and two SSRs for well under 100 dollars.
I have a drawing for a 8 channel controller, you can pick up a breadboard at Radio shack and point to point wire it up. Then you can get two pcb's for for the SSRs from either Sean, or wjohn. You can order all the parts from Mouser and be ready in about 2-3 weeks. I have to figure it out, but I think this would be well under 50 bucks.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/125/screenhunter009fk7.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenhunter009fk7.jpg)

[pete]

bnfmsgeek I was able to run 12 channels straight off my Printer port. Why don't you start by surfing ebay for solid state relays. anf I'll work in some instruction on how I set mine up.

[JohnByrne]

Ok guys, we don't see 14 year olds who will leave the TV these days so we gotta hook him up.

I have two SSR boards (no parts) that I'll offer for free.

What can we use to control them?

PM me your mailing address and two SSR boards will be on the way to you.

[JohnByrne]

BTW, at 14 you (and us for that matter) need to be very careful about your ID so please ask your parents before PMing me your address.

[Wayne J]

Ok guys, we don't see 14 year olds who will leave the TV these days so we gotta hook him up.

I have two SSR boards (no parts) that I'll offer for free.

What can we use to control them?

PM me your mailing address and two SSR boards will be on the way to you.

I will make the 8 channel controller, heck I will just make it a 16 channel 595 board. I have the parts here and can etch the board this week. Just send me the shipping info, with parents permission of course. ;)

[xmus]

Ok guys, we don't see 14 year olds who will leave the TV these days so we gotta hook him up.

I have two SSR boards (no parts) that I'll offer for free.

What can we use to control them?

PM me your mailing address and two SSR boards will be on the way to you.

I'll throw in two parts kits for SSR's.

Someone said they would pay me for 4SSR's and 4kits, but i haven't seen the money (been 3 days) so I'll re-list for sale, and provide 2 parts kits for free.

[xmus]

Couldn't he build an Olsen with just enough parts for 8 channels? I have free RJ45 jacks i could provide.
That would be pretty easy wouldn't it?

And I think it would be best if we provide a PCB, rather than having him try to wire it up.

I do have 2 proto (no silkscreen, no solder mask) renard 8's I'd be happy to provide for free, (I think we are calling them Renard 8's) but the Renard design is a bit more complex than the olsen (I hope no-one takes that as an offense in any way).

[Wayne J]

Couldn't he build an Olsen with just enough parts for 8 channels? I have free RJ45 jacks i could provide.
That would be pretty easy wouldn't it?

And I think it would be best if we provide a PCB, rather than having him try to wire it up.

I do have 2 proto (no silkscreen, no solder mask) renard 8's I'd be happy to provide for free, (I think we are calling them Renard 8's) but the Renard design is a bit more complex than the olsen (I hope no-one takes that as an offense in any way).

That's what I posted I was going to make for him (16 channels though). ;)

[xmus]

That's what I posted I was going to make for him (16 channels though). ;)

Oh, so I'm suppose to pay attention now :) Good luck with that! :)

[JohnByrne]

Heck, I'll throw in 4 boards so he will have two to build next year to fill that 16 channel board. I got them for dirt cheap when like a billion were ordered so no big deal.


BTW, you reminded me Dave that I owe you something. Will do it right now...sorry.

[xmus]

Heck, I'll throw in 4 boards so he will have two to build next year to fill that 16 channel board. I got them for dirt cheap when like a billion were ordered so no big deal.


BTW, you reminded me Dave that I owe you something. Will do it right now...sorry.

So it was you that didn't pay me for the kits :)

[JohnByrne]

Just shot you an email Dave. I think you still have someone out there. Our deal was/is for the proto boards only. You sold the SSR kits/boards to someone else.

BTW, you have paypal for the proto boards which doesn't impact this thread.

:)

[Wayne J]

OK, so we now have

1 - 16 channel olsen 595
4 - SSR pcb's
2 - SSR parts kits


What else can we come up with? Parallel cable, or maybe a DB25 to RJ45 adapter?

[JohnByrne]

I'll also throw in a couple of network cables.

1 - 16 channel olsen 595
4 - SSR pcb's
2 - SSR parts kits
2 - network cables (to go from the controller to the SSR boards)

[xmus]

I was confused, the SSR's and kits i had are long gone, shipped them Friday i think. JohnByrne owed me for some other stuff, which I got mixed up with those.

Sorry I won't be able to provide free SSR kits as I don't have any.

1 - 16 channel olsen 595
4 - SSR pcb's
0 - SSR parts kits
2 - network cables (to go from the controller to the SSR boards)

Thanks,
Dave

[Wayne J]

OK, so here's the parts list for the SSR's.
this list is for one pcb which is 4 channels.

http://christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=4_Channel_SSR_Parts_List

[IS_IT_X-MAS]

Hello bnfmsgeek,
I to was 14 when i started building my display in january, now i just turned 15 in Augest, and I am up to 64 channels, and building 64 additional before christmas. The people in this community are very helpfull when it comes to this stuff.

Good luck building your display!


Brent

[grages]

I have a DB25 to RJ45 adapter I can pass on.

Shawn

[bnfmsgeek]

Wow! The outpouring of help and parts the "internet community" provides never ceases to amaze me! Kinda puts you in a "Christmassy" mood, doesn't it?

Besides what everyone has already stated they will provide, what else do I need at what cost?

[JohnByrne]

Sent you a PM. I'll have my stuff in the mail no later than Wed. With respect to a parts list I'll see if I can get a Mouser list together for the SSR later tonight and post it with prices. Anyone want to do the same for the 595 board?

BTW, anyone have an extra serial cable they can send him?

[JohnByrne]

Hey, how far will the computer be from the lights you want to control (Tree???) ?

[bnfmsgeek]

Actually that leads me to a question. Does Vixen work under win98? If so, (and possibly if not) the computer will actually be under the tree hiding. I'll have to scrounge up an older computer from a local Yahoo! group (freeycle) and it might have win98. It's always possible that I might find a newer computer too.

[bnfmsgeek]

John- don't bother. Somebody already has a list for the SSR- its here: http://christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=4_Channel_SSR_Parts_List
All I really need is the 595 board.

[Wayne J]

JohnB & bnfmsgeek...... I am going to etch a custom 16 channel Olsen 595 board. I will also populate it. I have the parts here and can throw it together and have it in the mail by the weekend.

[Wayne J]

This what I will be sending. It has the standard pinouts, so if you want to chain it to a coop board, you can.

Is this OK?

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7026/16cqa8.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16cqa8.jpg)

[bnfmsgeek]

yeah it looks OK. It'll give me an example to go by.

[Wayne J]

yeah it looks OK. It'll give me an example to go by.

huh? It will be a functional board. Make a cable, hook up the relays and 'blinky flashy' :wink:

[bnfmsgeek]

No what I meant was the board you build for me will give me an example for a duplicate. I decided I'll do an 8 channel system. I will post my idea here in a sec...

Wait a minute... my bad.... I got temporarily confused there.

[JohnByrne]

The only concern I see at the moment is the speed of a Win98 machine. If you go to the Vixen web site there are specs as to the minimum speed you need. You also need to install something and that too is explained on the Vixen site.

[grages]

No what I meant was the board you build for me will give me an example for a duplicate. I decided I'll do an 8 channel system. I will post my idea here in a sec...

Wait a minute... my bad.... I got temporarily confused there.

I got your pm and address, I will send out the Parallel to RJ45 tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest.

[wjohn]

i am runnning Vixen 2.x on a 8 year old Tecra 8000 laptop. The show runs ok, but dont run visualiser!

Win2k, Pentium 300 , 196M RAM

[tconley]

why not use the grinch chip so you can cut down the number of chips

[eschnell]

Hey! I'm in high school too!

[bnfmsgeek]

OK guys should I go ahead and order the parts for the SSR? What, if anything, should I be doing to prepare while I wait for the parts?

[Wayne J]

why not use the grinch chip so you can cut down the number of chips


Like this one. It would be cheaper and easier. This may be the way to go.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4104/screenhunter013zp9.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenhunter013zp9.jpg)

[Wayne J]

OK, just just done the trace transfer on the above Grinch baord. I add a power LED and 4 mounting holes also. ;) It is only 2x3 inches.

[grages]

OK, just just done the trace transfer on the above Grinch baord. I add a power LED and 4 mounting holes also. ;) It is only 2x3 inches.

Wayne, how is he powering the board? Through the RJ45? Is so we may have to think about that adapter I sent.

https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdImag/66237.jpg

It's assembled for a Grinch/595 but it could be separated and have some wires added by drilling through the body.

[Mudsculpter]

OK guys should I go ahead and order the parts for the SSR? What, if anything, should I be doing to prepare while I wait for the parts?

choose some music, open up the Vixen software and familiarize yourself with the sequencing

[Wayne J]

Wayne, how is he powering the board? Through the RJ45? Is so we may have to think about that adapter I sent.
It's assembled for a Grinch/595 but it could be separated and have some wires added by drilling through the body.

I'm not sure, but the power will have to go through the rj45. I didn't add a provision for any other option. Your idea is the best route.

[grages]

Wayne, how is he powering the board? Through the RJ45? Is so we may have to think about that adapter I sent.
It's assembled for a Grinch/595 but it could be separated and have some wires added by drilling through the body.

I'm not sure, but the power will have to go through the rj45. I didn't add a provision for any other option. Your idea is the best route.

Correct me if i'm wrong, we only need a power supply if the Parallel port does not supply enough power?

If it doesn't then we need to make a fix such that we disconnect the two wires inside the adapter running to power and ground and route them through a hole in the housing to a power connector.

ok,ok I'm wrong we need to supply 5V on the RJ45 that it isn't getting power from the Parallel Port. It looks like pins 1 and 3 get the +5vdc and ground respectfully.

[JohnByrne]

Did not hear back with respect to how long the cat 5 cables need to be. I'm going to go ahead and make them and get them in the mail. Given what you said about being under the tree I think your SSR boards will be right by your control so I won't make them too long, maybe 3 to 4 feet each. Sound ok? I want to get this stuff in the mail to ya.

[P. Short]

The parallel port does not supply power, there aren't any power pins on the the parallel port connector. You can't get enough power out of the data and control lines for these designs.

--

Phil

[grages]

The parallel port does not supply power, there aren't any power pins on the the parallel port connector. You can't get enough power out of the data and control lines for these designs.

--

Phil

I did come to that conclusions but I do thank you for your confirmation. :D Now the question is the best way to pump power into the adapter I sent bnfmsgeek. Do i bring in a single +5V line or both 5V and ground. I was thinking of taping a extra hard drive power line.

[P. Short]

In general, you need to bring in both power and ground.

--

Phil

[grages]

In general, you need to bring in both power and ground.

--

Phil

I had the 3# pin going to ground on the Parallel port as indicated by the grinch manual , so we need to pull it from the parallel connector and tie it to ground and pin 1 to +5 of the RJ45 and voila we are done.

Thanks.
Shawn

[P. Short]

You need ground going from the Grinch/595 to both the source of power and to the parallel port. It's best to do both, even if you are getting power from the same machine as the parallel port.

--

Phil

[grages]

You need ground going from the Grinch/595 to both the source of power and to the parallel port. It's best to do both, even if you are getting power from the same machine as the parallel port.

--

Phil

Thanks Phil, I was wondering about that. Should be easy enough to do.

[bnfmsgeek]

oh... sorry about that. didn't realize you needed a specific size. :oops: that sounds about right

I will need a parallel (printer port), on my computer, right?

Should I go ahead and order the parts for the relay?

[JohnByrne]

You know I think I wasn't very clear thinking back. Sorry about that. Ok then I'll make up the cables tonight and get the boards/cable out tomorrow.

I will let someone else address the parallel cable. I wish I had a spare so I could send it to you.

Unless I am way off base I think you can order the SSR parts. Is there anything special for it when used with this controller or can he use the stock parts list? I'm not an expert on this so don't go by my word lol. This is my first year doing this too. In fact that is why I have the SSR boards. I got in on a coop not knowing what I wanted to get but I did suspect that the big SSR coop would be the last this year. I got a fantastic price but now I have a stack that I won't use given I went with 144 channels of Renard Xmus boards which btw are about 90% complete now. :P 8)


oh... sorry about that. didn't realize you needed a specific size. :oops: that sounds about right

I will need a parallel (printer port), on my computer, right?

Should I go ahead and order the parts for the relay?

[Wayne J]

You need ground going from the Grinch/595 to both the source of power and to the parallel port. It's best to do both, even if you are getting power from the same machine as the parallel port.

--

Phil

Thanks Phil, I was wondering about that. Should be easy enough to do.

I redid the board, it now has pads to bring the ground and +5 on the board. ;)

[JohnByrne]

Hey bnfmsgeek

Do you have a source for a 5 volt power supply?

Does this need to be clean like from a computer power supply? I have several old computer power supplies but they will probably need the resistor mod to make them stay on given they are not ATX. I could mail one to him if this is what he needs but I don't have the time to convert it to a bench power supply. Suggestions?

[Wayne J]

Hey bnfmsgeek

Do you have a source for a 5 volt power supply?

Does this need to be clean like from a computer power supply? I have several old computer power supplies but they will probably need the resistor mod to make them stay on given they are not ATX. I could mail one to him if this is what he needs but I don't have the time to convert it to a bench power supply. Suggestions?

He can just get the +5 and ground from the show PC's power supply.

[JohnByrne]

Sounds good.

[grages]

I will need a parallel (printer port), on my computer, right?



He should have the parallel to RJ45 tomorrow or Friday so he is ok there.

[grages]

I redid the board, it now has pads to bring the ground and +5 on the board. ;)

Thats great! It will make it easier. Did you have a new image of the board?

[Wayne J]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4181/screenhunter014hn8.th.jpg (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenhunter014hn8.jpg)

[grages]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4181/screenhunter014hn8.th.jpg (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenhunter014hn8.jpg)

Wow, Thats a work of Beauty!

[Wayne J]

Board is etched and I have it soldered up, just waiting on rj45's to get here to finish it.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/11/16cgrinchpv0.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16cgrinchpv0.jpg)

[JohnByrne]

Nice work Wayne,

I have bad news and good news. The bad news is that I have not shipped my stuff yet. The good news is why. I fell asleep last night on the couch so I didn't get an inventory but I'm going to be able to supply at least some of the parts to build one SSR. I can supply 4 triacs now and I think the sockets and MOC chips. I'll need to check to make sure I have the MOCs at home. Bottom line is Jayson has parts missing from my coop order coming and I had ordered a few things from mouser as well. Thus I have a few extras. Not many granted but what I have will be going into this project. Oh I also have at least two RJ45 jacks for the SSR boards as well.

Anyone have any other parts for the SSR? If I could get ahold of the other parts I'd be happy to build the SSR board (s) for him if needed. In fact I could simply ship one of the boards I have built.

[Mudsculpter]

I think in your zeal to help the young man, the forum members are doing too much for him,....Let him get the experience of building it himself. He will appreciate it more.

[JohnByrne]

I think you are right. Ok then, I'll ship the boards and let him solder. The SSR is simple and a good starting point and learning tool. Thanks

[bnfmsgeek]

grages - I got the adapter in the mail yesterday. Thanks a lot!

[Wayne J]

The control board will go out Monday. The main reason I went ahead and assembled the board was to to bypass any trouble shooting being so close to 'the time' and being a home etch with some pads and traces very close, I didn't know if this was a board to hone 'basic' soldering skills. The coop SSR boards are perfect for that though. ;) Anyways, I got the rest of the parts today and I will finish it up. :)

[grages]

grages - I got the adapter in the mail yesterday. Thanks a lot!

Your Welcome. It should be ready to go and with the power connections on the board you should not need to make any modifications to it.

Shawn

[Wayne J]

The board went out today. You will need a volt meter, find +5 and ground inside the computer you plan to use. Make a cable to solder to the board (the two marked pads on the board) to plug into the the +5 and ground you found inside the computer.
I have tested the board and it is operating. :D

[JohnByrne]

Jayson really came through with my missing parts. Just got a Mouser order in the mail. What does this mean for this thread you ask? Good question.

Tomorrow I'll mail the cat5 cables, 4 bare SSR boards, and the parts to build one of the SSR boards. All you will now need to purchase is the parts to build the second board, the plastic gang boxes for the SSR boards, and the outlets.

Merry Christmas
John