New House, DMX Dimmers or Renard??

[theatretch85]

I believe this is my first post, been a member for a while and started playing with Vixen just last year. I found out about vixen way too late in the season to do anything big, but I did setup a small display with 12 dimmable channels and 2 RGB LED fixtures all run via DMX. I programmed a couple songs and was very pleased with the programming and how everything turned out!

I have since bought my own house, and would like to expand on the computer controlled display. I have 16 mini trees that I would ideally like to light up with 2 channels each (more if I can afford it). I work with DMX dimmers and lights on occasion so naturally I thought DMX controlled dimmers. Looking at buying DMX dimmers the cost per channel works out to be about $15 bucks with shipping (this would be part of a 4 channel dimmer). It seems to be a little ridiculous to spend that much on a 4 channel dimmer where each channel is going to be running a couple watts (less than 1 amp).

I have been looking around on the site here and doing a little research, and it looks like maybe the Renard 64 might be my best option? I am looking to start out with at least 32 dimmable channels, with the option to easily expand later.

I am certainty not afraid to solder a circuit board, heck I have designed and custom ordered my own PCB's for a previous parallel port controller that I used before Vixen. It used a simple visualization plug-in for winamp and controlled a box of relays (lots of clicking and no dimming).

What I am looking for is opinions on the renard 64 vs the DMX dimmers. Does anyone have an idea of what a "channel" costs with the renard 64? If you were to break it down to total cost for one channel is it less than $15 bucks? I have never programmed any IC's, but it looks like I can probably order those pre-programmed.

Also, is there something better than the Renard that I should be looking at instead? Ideally i'd put this renard setup in a weather proof box and place it outside near the mini-trees to help reduce the multiple runs of a/c cable to the trees.

Anything else I am missing?

Thanks all for your time!

[WWNF911]

Welcome and what took so long to post? LOL

Although I haven't seen (or I should say I dont remember seeing) a cost comparison with regard to Renard and DMX per say,.. just onboard SSR's vs the external SSR's as with the Renard 64. Your putting the Renard 64 out in the display would not save as much on the length of power cords as much as it would definitely cut down on the legnth needed of CAT5 cable and would definitely cleanup the display in doing that.

Leon

[mrpackethead]

Yes its much less than $15 a channel.. Also, the Renard will accept DMX512 with a different firmware loaded on it. ( same hardware, different software ) Since you're already using DMX this probably is a really good idea.

[g2ktcf]

Last I looked, the REN64XC was about $90 including the board. The SSRez is around $14 each (and thats four channels). This is about $5 a channel without the cords. But you are completely correct on the power situation...this hobby is a low amp, high channel count endeavor. I have had some folks on other sites argue this point with me. However, when you are paying in excess of $40 a channel, I do understand the need to get all the power you can out of each one! ;)

[ctmal]

This link on the wiki may be of some help to you.

http://www.christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=7_Steps_to_Selecting_a_Controller

[theatretch85]

Welcome and what took so long to post? LOL
Leon

I am just now starting to think about building on and expanding my display, I guess I found enough of the information available when I started out with Vixen (I actually remember jumping for joy when I found Vixen and how very simple it was to connect with the DMX dimmers and USB dongle I already had in my possesion). Vixen has certaintly been easy to program and to work with (just very time consuming) and I really like how easy it is to work with the DMX controls. I have a couple 4 channel DMX dimmers, 2 RGB LED fixtures, 2 800watt DMX strobes, and a DMX controller for my big fog machine.


Yes its much less than $15 a channel.. Also, the Renard will accept DMX512 with a different firmware loaded on it. ( same hardware, different software ) Since you're already using DMX this probably is a really good idea.

Doing this setup for less than $15 per channel would be amazing! I was looking at roughly $480 just to do 32 dimmable channels in 4 channel dimmer packs! I am very interested in keeping the DMX protocol vs controlling through a serial port. This would in theory allow me to use this in a DJ sort of setting in the future if I ever want to incorporate a ton of channels.


Last I looked, the REN64XC was about $90 including the board. The SSRez is around $14 each (and thats four channels). This is about $5 a channel without the cords. But you are completely correct on the power situation...this hobby is a low amp, high channel count endeavor. I have had some folks on other sites argue this point with me. However, when you are paying in excess of $40 a channel, I do understand the need to get all the power you can out of each one! ;)

Yes it is a low power, high channel hobby! I want to get into doing multiple colors for different areas and they certaintly won't take that much power per each channel.

Is there a place I can purchse all these parts as a kit online somewhere? I am getting the feeling that this is all done via the CO-OP purchases. I have purchase tons of parts on Newark before (still have an active account) though I'd really like to get a pre-etched board and pre-programmed IC's.

I think I am set on using the Renard 64 with dimming and to start with at least populating 32 channels (i'd do all 64 if its not that much more than 32). Ideally I'd use this one controller for the mini trees and either do 16 with 4 channels each or 32 with 2 channels each (this will depend on how it lays out in the yard with spacing, etc).

Is the REN64XC a kit for $90? If this is a kit, does it include all the parts for dimming on each channel? Pre-programmed IC's by chance?

[dmcole]

If you want to go with DMX, there are three avenues you can follow:

*Using the Renard DIY technology with the DMX software. This means depending upon the Renard model you choose, you can have centralized or de-centralized power. There's more info in the Renard forum on this board. Suffice to say, you can buy PCBs from developers and then buy components for the boards from a variety of electronics retailers (mostly around here we focus on Mouser, though there are others, including Jameco and Futurelec).

*Using the Lynx array of DIY devices. Lynx was developed by Robert Jordan and he has a web site devoted to the Lynx line, including a DMX dongle, as well as centralized and de-centralized power controllers. RJ's site is http://diylightanimation.com/.

*On this site Robert Martin (RPM) has created a series of DIY DMX-based devices as well. You can read about his 16-channel device at http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7589 . I believe he has designed a couple of other iterations of a similar device with greater and fewer channels.

The beauty of DMX? You can mix and match 'em all.

Hope this helps.

\dmc

[g2ktcf]

My Mouser.com BOM is shared...you can use it to order parts. The link is
http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=f5cb7cc994

Now, it shows resistors as onesy twosy...Look at the prices! you get 100 for the same cost as 5 or 10. Check each part out.

Also, I would suggest that you completely outfit the REN64XC controller board. The cost of the channels is really in the SSRs. Those you can just get enough to make it work.

The SSRez BOM is http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=12efc54e27

Let us know if you have any questions.

Chris

[mrpackethead]

If you want to go with DMX, there are three avenues you can follow:



i would suggest you make sure what ever way you go, that you get a project where the code is open ( both binarys and source ), schematics and code are open and available and theres no secrects.. The Renard and RPMS projects follow this model. You'll find lots of people able to help out, and your not locked into one persons support when its open.

[theatretch85]

The Mouser BOM's are a big help! Now I just need to remember my Mouser login info, haha.

Do the SSR's support dimming? I thought solid state relays didn't dim, I haven't dealt with solid state relays in the past, only the mechanical relays. This has been a little confusing with the SSR's and how I can dim with those.

I'd assume the SSRez BOM is for 4 total channels and connects to the renard 64 xc controller board via the cat5?

[ron d]

I am using a few rgb wall washers in my show this year and migrated over to light show pro to test and play around and found it to not only work with the wall washers but far exceeded my expectations as far as ease to use/program/sequence. They now have a renard plugin and i hope to test and recheck all my controllers this weekend using lsp. Still may use vixen but i hope to add some wireless controllers and add lights in 3 yards other then my own for this season.

[g2ktcf]

The Mouser BOM's are a big help! Now I just need to remember my Mouser login info, haha.

Do the SSR's support dimming? I thought solid state relays didn't dim, I haven't dealt with solid state relays in the past, only the mechanical relays. This has been a little confusing with the SSR's and how I can dim with those.

I'd assume the SSRez BOM is for 4 total channels and connects to the renard 64 xc controller board via the cat5?

The SSRez does support dimming with a full load of 6A and up to 2A per channel if you use heat sinks on the TRIACs. The REN64xc controller board sends a common 5VDC to the SSRez and then the controls connect the channel to ground to complete the circuit...all done along the CAT5 cable.

BTW. Some solid state relays do support dimming but NOT very many.

[g2ktcf]

The Mouser BOM's are a big help! Now I just need to remember my Mouser login info, haha.


Okay...I had an error on the Mouser BOM. I had too many parts in it. I know remember that I created this BOM from an order! In the process of going over it with keebler, we ended up destroying the orignal BOM! :(

So, here is the "corrected" new one. All the excess parts are gone.

http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=8adb441d64

This BOM is exactly how the wiki list the parts. However I did not build mine this way. I did not like the spade terminals for the input power so I used a regular 2 position terminal block. Also, if you make a RS232 cable with the RJ45 on the board connection side, you will not need the DB9 connector.

Good Luck!

Chris

[theatretch85]

Hmm, well unless there are suitable substitutes for the back ordered parts, looks like I will be waiting a few weeks to get all the parts in.

So in order to run 64 channels of the Renard setup, I need everything in the updated BOM, plus I need 16 orders of the parts for the SSRez to get the 64 channels correct? These would be the parts to build and add in later as time/money/need permits and just connect to the main controller board via the cat5.

This is starting to make a lot more sense and looking more and more doable. I'll just need to get enough parts ordered and figure out how to order the etched boards (I believe I saw somewhere on here its 'wjohn' I need to contact?)

The cost of the SSRez BOM and needing x16 of that order gets to be expensive for all those parts, but it is certainly a lot cheaper than the dimmer packs, and I am looking at double the channels this way too.

Side question: Would the SSR's (thinking 25 amp capacity) be acceptable as a controller to turn on the various circuits powering the display? Thinking a large junction box to house several SSR's to control the power for the entire display across several circuits all being controlled off one timer. In the past I've used a break out box with a 4 pole 40 amp mechanical relay which has a 24vdc coil. I had issues on occasion with the relay being out side, it didn't always engage when it was sent power. Found a couple 25 amp SSR's on ebay for a pretty decent price (shipping from hong kong); any opinions on this idea?

[g2ktcf]

Hmm, well unless there are suitable substitutes for the back ordered parts, looks like I will be waiting a few weeks to get all the parts in.

So in order to run 64 channels of the Renard setup, I need everything in the updated BOM, plus I need 16 orders of the parts for the SSRez to get the 64 channels correct? These would be the parts to build and add in later as time/money/need permits and just connect to the main controller board via the cat5.

This is starting to make a lot more sense and looking more and more doable. I'll just need to get enough parts ordered and figure out how to order the etched boards (I believe I saw somewhere on here its 'wjohn' I need to contact?)

The cost of the SSRez BOM and needing x16 of that order gets to be expensive for all those parts, but it is certainly a lot cheaper than the dimmer packs, and I am looking at double the channels this way too.

Side question: Would the SSR's (thinking 25 amp capacity) be acceptable as a controller to turn on the various circuits powering the display? Thinking a large junction box to house several SSR's to control the power for the entire display across several circuits all being controlled off one timer. In the past I've used a break out box with a 4 pole 40 amp mechanical relay which has a 24vdc coil. I had issues on occasion with the relay being out side, it didn't always engage when it was sent power. Found a couple 25 amp SSR's on ebay for a pretty decent price (shipping from hong kong); any opinions on this idea?

Several folks here use those high amp SSRs as power switches and they work quite well. IHMO, a timer is better than anything else. I like to use all my channels for blinky flashy.

As for the SSRez, each one gives you 4 channels. A total of 16 are required to completely fill the the REN64. I may have 19 boards left from this past coop ($2 each + PP + shipping). I will need to check my numbers first. After those are gone, then wjohn will continue to supply them.

parts..yes the complete REN64 BOM plus some sort of power supply. I used this (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=41FD030virtualkey21980000virt ualkey41FD030) but the they have a 1A version (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=41fd010). The cost difference is $0.17 and you can run up to three REN64XCs off one supply.

[theatretch85]

My thought on the SSR's for power control wasn't to use a channel of control for them, but just to wire them up to a transformer and a simple timer so all the lights come on at once (rather than having multiple timers coming on at different times).

I'll have to give it some thought as to how many channels I want to configure right away, but I would certainly be interested in a few boards anyway. I don't suppose you have the back ordered PICs or the renard controller board do you?

Reading some other threads here it looks like it would be a good idea to purchase my own pic programmer. I would like to run the renard setup on DMX, so flashing the pics with the DMX firmware would be ideal. From what I have been reading the flashing the PIC's is not hard to do; just curious what I should be looking for and how much I should be expecting to pay for a pic programmer. Also, is the software usually included or is there a good piece of free/open source software?

Thanks everyone for all the useful information! I am hoping to get this one renard 64 system built and ready for this year's display, and then probably build more for next year. Eventually i'd like to build some leaping arches, they look pretty cool!

[g2ktcf]

REN64XC board...pm wjohn. I would get two as the shipping will be the same for one.

software for programming the PICs usually comes with the programmer. The overall consensus on DIYC is the PicKitII from Microchip. You only need to download MPLAB for that one. But you need MPLAB to compile the ASM files to HEX anyway. As for other things needed..I am drafting a tools wiki page now. Here is the draft (http://www.christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=DIYC_Tools).

As far as parts go, I do not have any extras. We are in the middle of the SSRez coop. But we cut off the orders about two weeks ago.

Mouser seems to be back ordering A LOT in the past two weeks. The good thing is that the time to build the SSRez is very short. Only a few minutes on each once you get going. I am working on a construction wiki now. The draft is available here (http://www.christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=SSRez).

Cheers,
Chris

[mrpackethead]

[QUOTE=theatretch85;74481just curious what I should be looking for and how much I should be expecting to pay for a pic programmer. Also, is the software usually included or is there a good piece of free/open source software?[/QUOTE]

Theres A lot of programmers out there.. Many have their quirks about them. However i always suggest the Microsoft PICKIT II programmer.. Its not the cheapest, but its proven to be very reliable and flexible.. Its also fully supported by Microchip the makers of the PIC chips. Regards software, Microchips MPLAB is what you need, and its freely downloadable from the web

[BF210]

<...> i always suggest the Microsoft PICKIT II programmer.

Ouch! The beast from Redmond may want to control everything digital, but the PICkit 2 is from Microchip, the maker of the PICs. There are clones, but as mentioned you can be sure the Microchip development software (free) will continue to support the genuine PICkit 2 ($35) (http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=PG164120) for many years.

(yet another Don)

PS: You don't need the demo board; the product search is a sales tool.

[mrpackethead]

Ouch! The beast from Redmond may want to control everything digital, but the PICkit 2 is from Microchip, the maker of the PICs. There are clones, but as mentioned you can be sure the Microchip development software (free) will continue to support the genuine PICkit 2 ($35) (http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=PG164120) for many years.
(yet another Don)
PS: You don't need the demo board; the product search is a sales tool.

Opps. Lets hope that slip of the brain never comes to reality!

[theatretch85]

I've been debating on building the renard 64xc with the external SSR's or a combination of renard 16's and 24's with the on-board SSR's. My plan for this year is to at least setup 32 dimmable channels in the yard for 16 mini trees with 2 channels each (thinking red and white lights). I like the idea of the 8/16/24 channels having the on-board SSR's and id imagine the cost to build these would be a little cheaper than the renard 64xc ($/per channel).

Eventually i'd like to either add more trees or more colors to the 16 trees (or both) and eventually some leaping arches as well. I am thinking right now 2 renard 16's would be ok for the 32 channels id need this year, but wonder where the price break is at in terms of better bang for the buck. I wouldn't mind spending a little more this year on stuff I can build for next year if I can get a decent price per channel now.

Also, I see lots of people using the broadband enclousures, how do these work laying down in the snow? Or do they need to be standing upright inorder to properly protect the components inside? It would seem the snow could leak in where the wires enter/exit the box and that these enclousures would need to stand upright. How have other people dealt with putting enclousures out in the yard in a snowy environment?

[rstehle]

The Broadband boxes do need to be mounted verticaly. I mount mine to a wooden stand made of a 24" piece of 1 X 3, and a piece of 3/4" outdoor plywood cut to the size of the box. I cut one end of the 1 X 3 to a point on my miter saw. Screw the plywood to the non pointed end of the 1 X 3. Paint with flat black spray paint (faster than brushing it on) Pound the pointed end in to the ground a few inches, which should keep the controller out of most snowfall. (Use a longer 1 X 3 if you have really deep snow) I screw the Broadband box to the plywood from the inside. If you have 2 controllers to mount in the same area, put another piece of plywood on the other side and mount them back to back. We had anywhere from 1" to 8" of snow on the ground most of December, and these worked great with no leaks........

[theatretch85]

Hmm, I might have to look for some other enclosures then. I don't really have a place nearby where the mini-trees will be going that I can have this box sticking up out of the ground. I suppose if I put up a "Tune To" sign, the box could go on the backside and depending on positioning that might work.

Are there any other enclosures people have used in the snow that don't need to be vertical? Looking to be able to lay it on the ground near the mini-trees (and eventually the leaping arches).

[Virtus]

I use the YourBroadBand store enclosures horizontally under the snow. I just lay either plastic or last year I used anti-fatigue workshop mats over them and they were all fine.

[theatretch85]

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I have seen some 6x6x4 and 8x8x6 PVC electrical enclosures at Menards nearby me and considered using those, would just need a way to bring the power and data in and power out in a weather tight seal somehow. I guess i'd have to look at the price difference between the pvc box and the yourbroandband store enclosures.

Does anyone have an opinion on doing 2 ren 16's with the integrated SSR's vs a renard 64XC? I'm wondering if I am going to have enough time to build either one this late in the year, I am very good at soldering components on a board. I might buy all the parts to build the components this year, but may plan on purchasing some additional DMX dimmers for this year's display just to make sure I have some of the channels i'll want.

I'll have to see if I can get my Parallel port controller working from my old display. Its just an 8 port relay box with opto-isolators on each port, I remember trying to get it to work in vixen, but never did get it working and assumed it wasn't supported. Looking through the forums, it looks like it should work, anyone have any tips on the basic parallel port control?