Startup Costs

[dirknerkle]

Caution to newbies: this hobby is incredibly addicting. Here's an estimated breakdown of the costs of getting in at the 64-channel level.

$10-15 --- Blank controller board (Grinch or Olsen 595)
$18-$40 --- Controller board parts (Grinch is about $18, Olsen 595 about $40)
$12 each --- Four-channel SSR controller & parts (You need 16 of them)
$75 --- Category 5 wire (approx 1000 feet)
$200 --- Connectors, A/C power cables, screws, nuts, cable ties, tape, etc.
$5 each --- Light strings (100 lights/string - prices vary widely)

Total all this up, and you'll spend about $800 to put a 64-channel system in action with a Grinch or Olsen 595.

If you go the Renard way instead of choosing the Grinch or Olsen 595, three SS24 Renard boards (24 channels each for a total of 72 channels) and parts will set you back about $180, but then you don't need all the SSRs, cat5 wire and most connectors since the Renard boards incorporate the SSRs natively. However, you'll still need to run long A/C current wires from the Renards to your light strings, and you'll still use supplies such as screws, cable ties, tape, etc.

The GOOD news is that it's a LOT of fun, and you don't have to start with 64 channels! Build a 64-controller, 2 or 3 SSRs and get started with only a dozen or so strings. You can grow with the hobby, and it's one that will be fun for years and years.

Advice: Marry an extremely forgiving and loving spouse whichever way you go.

[Dino242]

Total all this up, and you'll spend about $800 to put a 64-channel system in action with a Grinch or Olsen 595.

Shhhhhhh! You're gonna scare 'em away!



Advice: Marry an extremely forgiving and loving spouse whichever way you go.


Or just hide it well... You can call it 'Creative Financing' :)

[dfranks]

I am a newbie here and went the Ren24 route. So far I can account for about $450 into this new hobby. ~$200 on 2 controllers, ~$100 on a new soldering station, blew up a few parts and had to order more (also picked up a few extra of most everything) and misc., $100 in 50 more mini lights, $50 in 6 foot extension cords and I'm sure I'm missing some things.

But at the same time I am fighting myself not to shout out "Hey does anyone have any Ren24 boards that they want to sell??!!" I just looked a little closer at the Trik boards, my hands are shaking to get some of those. But no, no, no... I still need about another $100 for SPT1 wiring and connectors, pvc pipe for my leaping arches so I will continue to try and not buy more boards. But it is a long way off until the holiday season, I'm not sure if I can make it or not. (My channel count is a little tight and another Ren24 would ease that issue) This hobby is veryyyyyyyyyy addicting!!!! And I love it!! :)

[sjwilson122]

Just wanted to say that while this hobby can be expensive, it does not "have" to be. With some carefull internet scouring and searching you can usually find some very good deals. I started last year and have two ren-c, grinch set ups, I found 1000' cat5e for $40.00 shipped, 300 8 amp triacs for $30.00, 200 rj45 jacks for $20.00 and many other good deals. I have between $350.00 and $400.00 invested for 128 dimming channels for last year.

We are adding more this year (LEDtriks here I come). I also picked up a dedicated show computer, 3ghz P4, 1g ram, 250g HD, 512mb video, ($36.00 find on ebay.) I even found a Sealevel 172331, 4 port 485/422 serial card for $34.00 shipped (now if I can just figure out how to configure it properly.)

There are great deals out there, you just have to look for them. Start looking for them early (like day after Christmas) and have fun with it.

[dirknerkle]

I'm quite new to this hobby and to the DIYC forum, too, and one of the best startup costs I've incurred was to become a supporting member of DIYC.

It's only $20 for a year, and the amount of assistance, information and help I've received here even in the past couple weeks has saved me much, much more than that. It's the best $20 I've spent so far and I heartily encourage others to do the same. It will come back to you many times over.

[oldcqr]

It has been my experience that you tend to spend as much, if not a little more, on extension cords as you do on channels. While you may endeavor to get as many of your controllers as close as you can to what they are controlling, you will still need to run extension cords to many of your display items/areas. Many newbies tend to forget about them.

You may also need to run cords from the house TO the controller. Sure, you save 32 cords by putting your controllers under your Megatree, but did you forget the 4 100' 14AWG cords that go TO those controllers? :p

Thankfully, extension cords should be a one-time investment. Properly handled and stored, they should last the lifetime of any display.
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If using incandescents, you should also budget money to replace 25 to 30 percent of your lights year after year. Clear lights last many years, while colors need to be replaced much sooner. This is especially true of blue sets which tend to only last a year.
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Also, don't forget your storage needs. Let's forget about the fact that you'll end up needing a shed soon enough (:razz:) and focus on storage containers.

All those lights, cords, and other fiddly bits require someplace to live in the off season. Since controlled displays tend to be large displays, you'll need to organize all your stuff. Bite the bullet early and buy hinged commercial style bins. Not only can you load more into them than you can possibly carry, you don't have to worry about the tops collapsing when you stack them 2 or 3 high.

[chilloutdocdoc]

ORGANIZE! The most important decision you can make for your display. That way, when you realize that you need more extension cords than your garage currently has, you don't have to spend 2 hours in a storage unit searching for a bin while stuff is falling on your head.

Now I didn't learn that first hand *looks around*

[oldcqr]

ORGANIZE! The most important decision you can make for your display.

IMHO, organization is the key to everything. From taking the time to label and arrange parts (http://www.landolights.com/main/component/option,com_ponygallery/Itemid,31/func,viewcategory/catid,30/) for your next build, to labeling what is in all those bins (http://www.landolights.com/main/component/option,com_ponygallery/Itemid,31/func,detail/id,84/#ponyimg)!

[Superfreak3]

Extension cords were the killer for me, but the addiction sometimes leads to purchases that are not really needed. After all of the first year expenses, its still more than worth it when you see all your planning and work in action.

Great Hobby!

[chilloutdocdoc]

As for prices for extension cords, I load up on the indoor 6ft ones (18ga, spt-2, Home Depot) everytime that Home Depot puts out sales on the type of save $10 off $50. Always pick up cords when they're on sale, YOU'LL NEED THEM!

[chilloutdocdoc]

...

$10-15 --- Blank controller board (Grinch or Olsen 595)
$18-$40 --- Controller board parts (Grinch is about $18, Olsen 595 about $40)
$12 each --- Four-channel SSR controller & parts (You need 16 of them)
$75 --- Category 5 wire (approx 1000 feet)
$200 --- Connectors, A/C power cables, screws, nuts, cable ties, tape, etc.
$5 each --- Light strings (100 lights/string - prices vary widely)

Total all this up, and you'll spend about $800 to put a 64-channel system in action with a Grinch or Olsen 595.

...

Advice: Marry an extremely forgiving and loving spouse whichever way you go.

To show that DIY truely does save you money then lets compare that $800 for 64 channels, and extension cords, and lights, etc etc. To JUST a Light-O-Rama controller....

64 Channel Starter Package
Get started! A complete 64 channel sytstem. $1,395.95

Just shy of $1400 JUST FOR THE CONTROLLER

Can you say YAY FOR DIYC =)

[oldcqr]

To show that DIY truely does save you money then lets compare that $800 for 64 channels, and extension cords, and lights, etc etc. To JUST a Light-O-Rama controller....

64 Channel Starter Package
Get started! A complete 64 channel sytstem. $1,395.95

Just shy of $1400 JUST FOR THE CONTROLLER

Can you say YAY FOR DIYC =)

If you have a tiny bit of soldering experience, and the time to get it running, DIY is definitely cheaper.

LOR does offer some things that you don't get DIY that some people may want to pay a premium for. Dan (the owner) is a VERY nice person, and from what i have read takes care of ALL problems a customer could have. Controllers can also be had cheaper during sales - but not as cheap as DIY prices....

Coming from the Animated Lighting side, it's a WHOLE lot cheaper... I have 256 channels now (up from 128 AL). If I were to go with AL for that amount, depending on the type of controller you wanted, and assuming that the owner was in a good mood and willing to deal a little , That would have run me close to $4000. My SS boards complete -- all the way down to enclosures, real 3 ping dongles, and 15A input cords, and other new tools that I needed to construct them -- were less than $1200.

To put it another way:

It was actually cheaper to build another 8 channel controller than it was to run the 600' of extension cord (150' * 4 channels) back to my workshop to light it up. As bonus I have 4 more channels back there!

[dhavard]

I'll never forget the look on my wife's face when I purchased my first 100 6ft. extension cords from Lowe's and then complaining that I should have bought more..lol

[zoommedic]

days after christmas I bought 103 boxes of lights. the wife was furious, told her that when she graduates nursing school, 15 days from today, we would look into getting her a BMW when she gets a job..... HEHEHEHEHEHE

[RichF]

Hey you set the stage right. We will "Look" nothing said about buying or leasing.

[P. Short]

and the time to get it running

Sequencing and setup take a lot of time either way. I'm not sure if the 'time to get it running' is all that significant by comparison, especially if you can do it in the off-time.

[cbell]

days after christmas I bought 103 boxes of lights. the wife was furious, told her that when she graduates nursing school, 15 days from today, we would look into getting her a BMW when she gets a job..... HEHEHEHEHEHE

Getting off topic here, but I guess an angry wife could be considered a startup cost, but anyhow, my way around this was getting her involved. She loves to shop especially on really busy, crazy days like the day after Christmas, so I sent her to get lights. She got quite a haul too, and I didn't have to hear about how much I spend on lights! :p

[dirknerkle]

...my way around this was getting her involved. She loves to shop especially on really busy, crazy days like the day after Christmas, so I sent her to get lights. She got quite a haul too, and I didn't have to hear about how much I spend on lights! :p

Now THERE'S a smart guy!!! Well done!

[Wayne J]

Getting off topic here, but I guess an angry wife could be considered a startup cost, but anyhow, my way around this was getting her involved. She loves to shop especially on really busy, crazy days like the day after Christmas, so I sent her to get lights. She got quite a haul too, and I didn't have to hear about how much I spend on lights! :p

LOL.... I do the same! She loves it!! Remember the 3 cord sale from HD?.... She hit every HD here local, THEN drove a little over an hour to one that had 100 more on the shelf, best part was, she did all of the calling to find them also! She even made a trip back home, 3 hours away, to buy all of the mini's for our arches because everyone was sold out here. What a trooper!

Back on topic, a few things I think have not been thought about... all the bits it takes to hang the lights, spikes to hold stuff down, tape, silicone, ect. These little things add up quick when doing a large display.

[bmcgeeny]

I actually think the startup costs are the cheapest part. I spent a couple hundred dollars to "startup" It's the thousands spent to "feed" the animal that adds up.

Just remember, there is no such thing as a "free" puppy.

[klanger]

days after christmas I bought 103 boxes of lights. the wife was furious, told her that when she graduates nursing school, 15 days from today, we would look into getting her a BMW when she gets a job..... HEHEHEHEHEHE


You know she will want it the first day of work... dont you?

[chilloutdocdoc]

I actually think the startup costs are the cheapest part. I spent a couple hundred dollars to "startup" It's the thousands spent to "feed" the animal that adds up.

Just remember, there is no such thing as a "free" puppy.

Feeding the animal is the best part, you get to put all the tender love and care into it, and once a year, see what you've produced, and hey, we could be into something worse right?

[djulien]

Back on topic, a few things I think have not been thought about... all the bits it takes to hang the lights, spikes to hold stuff down, tape, silicone, ect. These little things add up quick when doing a large display.

I don't have a "large" display, but last year my expenses were almost an even 3-way split between lights (at least half were at sale prices), electronics (controllers and SSRs), and "hardware" (includes prop materials, cords, adhesives, and misc fixtures/mounting hardware, etc).

don

[zoommedic]

well, she keeps telling me to start small. I explained the cost difference between the Ren64 +16 SSR to 3 Ren24's. She was happy with me "saving" there. That swap she approved of. But she keeps saying, start small.


I call 72 channels, 3 arches, 8 mini trees(3 colors ea), and 1 mega tree(3 colors).......
SMALL........ right?

Thats not including the 3 eight foot inflatables my parents got me for xmas.

[WWNF911]

well, she keeps telling me to start small.
I call 72 channels, 3 arches, 8 mini trees(3 colors ea), and 1 mega tree(3 colors).......
SMALL........ right?

Thats not including the 3 eight foot inflatables my parents got me for xmas.

Actually for Texas,... thats quite conservative. You're right on track! ;)

[Wayne J]

well, she keeps telling me to start small. I explained the cost difference between the Ren64 +16 SSR to 3 Ren24's. She was happy with me "saving" there. That swap she approved of. But she keeps saying, start small.


I call 72 channels, 3 arches, 8 mini trees(3 colors ea), and 1 mega tree(3 colors).......
SMALL........ right?

Thats not including the 3 eight foot inflatables my parents got me for xmas.

72 channels is a great number to start with. It will give you a challenge, educate you, and will impress the wife (this will approve a larger budget ;) ) and others. Then you will be better prepared for making the display larger next season.

[51fordf2]

I'm starting rather big, just because I started with 192 channels of DIO96 boards. then, of course, needed some dimming, so have two Firegod boards coming. 256 more channels! I may decide to just use one DIO, and one Firegod, for a total of 224 channels. Or two DIO's, and one Firegod...320...or maybe two Firegod's, and one DIO...352...man, decisions, decisions!! My house does lend itself to lots of channels, though.

And all it is costing me, to keep mama happy, is a week long vacation to Florida! Without me! I'm not one to relax on vacation, I would constantly think about what I'm not getting done, so we figured it would be best, if she and my daughter went. My vacation will be two weeks in October, putting the display together.

http://crbest.com/christmas/houseforforum.jpg

but, I DID send her out after Christmas, to buy some icycle LED's that Sams had on sale, and she brought home 27 boxes, all they had left. that's 5400 more lights! So, I guess she has gotten into the swing of it, after all!

R

[daviddth]

The "Startup" costs never get better. This is year 3 and I just ordered close to US$400 in parts, and probably have 1 more order if similar size for the rest of the bits, plus LED's for the larger Ledtriks and LED floodlights.

ARGH!

[fkostyun]

I prefer to use the "creative financing" part of it to fund my part!

My favorite is the sell on ebay for paypal $$ for parts ones.

[g2ktcf]

We discuss this alot...however, I think one part is seriously missing.

1. You do not have to have 100+ channels your first year. Start small with 16, 24, or even 64.
2. What you buy this year can be used next year
3. Each year you add a bit more
4. Resist the urge to do too much...

Now, who the heck am I to say this as I am increasing my channel count by over 500 this year? :lol: The wise man (not me of course :D ) says "start small..add to it each year"

just my 2 cents

Chris

[51fordf2]

Wow, I have 448 (possible) this year...1000 next year?!?

Guess I didn't listen, either...

Roger

[Warlock]

Sorry guys but I disagree with the whole cost vs channel count idea...Some looks you need the channel count to pull off...For example leapers...You need a hich channel count simply to make them leap properly...A leaper with only 4 channels isn't going to move how you want it.Also true with this idea is a mega tree...You simply can't have an awesome mega tree with only 16 channels....I have yet to see video of one with only 16 channels that looks great.If someone wants to prove me wrong by all means post it and lets all have a look..Altho to contradict you can make it possible if it is only 1 color..For a multi color tree it is simply impossible to make it look good with only 16 channels...Mine for example is going to be 48 channels alone..Now bare inmind it's only going to be a 6 foot tall tree and 32 inches around..Not very big but for the fading action between colors I want to accomplish I need those channels...So the bases of too many channels for the first year is not totally correct....Simply base your channel count on what you need to accomplish whatever effect you are after.While this is my first year I'm starting off with 256 channels simply so I can have the control I desire for the effect I'm after.Not to be a big shot and say I have 5000 channels or anything like that.With careful planning you can design a great show with 24 channels or 5000 channels..It all depends on the effect you wish to accomplish with what you have to build with..
All I or anyone else can ask people who start with this hobby is to be careful with how many channels you do start with so your not overwhelmed with your end reasult not being what you wish for in the end.It might take you 2 years to achieve what you truely wish for as a certain effect might look great on computer but outside it might take on a whole new light and present issues you never dreamed of while on the computer...
Just my 2 cents worth
Warlock

[oldcqr]

You simply can't have an awesome mega tree with only 16 channels....I have yet to see video of one with only 16 channels that looks great.If someone wants to prove me wrong by all means post it and lets all have a look.

Call Me Claus (http://www.landolights.com/main/mambots/content/mgmediabot/players.php?params=standalone,true|type,flv|path,h ttp://www.landolights.com/main/images/2006_Video/claus_flash.flv|width,640|height,480)

Ideas for using less channels:
Decisions for Animated Displays (http://www.landolights.com/main/content/view/80/39/#decisions)

...and I say you can't have an awesome arguement with a keyboard that lacks a return key :lol:

[ErnieHorning]

Call Me Claus (http://www.landolights.com/main/mambots/content/mgmediabot/players.php?params=standalone,true|type,flv|path,h ttp://www.landolights.com/main/images/2006_Video/claus_flash.flv|width,640|height,480)It looks awesome to me.:D

Warlock, what ya got?

[P. Short]

Sorry guys but I disagree with the whole cost vs channel count idea...Some looks you need the channel count to pull off

That may be true, but the discussion is about startup costs. FOR THE FIRST YEAR I recommend that you plan for a modest display with a relatively small number of channels. There are a lot of things that you will be doing for the very first time. Everything takes longer when you are figuring out how to do things. Unanticipated problems will appear, and you will probably be making lots of extra trips to the local hardware stores. Wait until you have one year of experience under your belt before going for fancy effects and high channel count.

[Warlock]

While true it is nice.Simply not for me...WHile yes excellent job was done I'm simply out for something different..Even as a first year builder for all this display.I've personally been trying to figure out a few ideas to get something different then what everyone else has or has done already..To do ideas like this and be different you need the higher channel count..I was origionally thinking 48 might do the effects I wish for but now that I go back over the designs of what look I'm after 48 might not be enough..So the main point I was trying to make is that depending on the look you are after you will need the higher channel count so the cost versus channel idea is tossed out the window...For the look I desire I simply can't pull it off with only 64 channels...It's impossible to gain the control and the look I desire with only that limited a channel count.
The ideas I do have I will gladly share once they are finalized...So far what I have fully figured out is 10 channel leapers (6 of them across the front yeard)
More then likely a 4 color 64 channel mega tree 6 feet tall and 32 inches in diameter,8 reindeer(4 being 3 deminisional and 4 being silloettes on the roofline) along with 1600 icle lights also from the eves and awning in 4 colors.4 sets of floods in each color as well for washes,plus lights on my hedge (which I'm still currently working out the channel count to do lettering with conventional leds),plus ontop of all that another 1600 to 2000 lights in 4 colors all over the bushes all individually controlled..So alot of channels for the effects I desire and placement of items around the yard..I'll post my design pics once they are fully finalized...I've been planning this for the last 3 years...It's now time to put it into action cause a: I can do it this year and b: this is my last christmas in Ontario as I'm moving and want one last huge blow out before I leave...

[51fordf2]

(snip)There are a lot of things that you will be doing for the very first time. Everything takes longer when you are figuring out how to do things. Unanticipated problems will appear, and you will probably be making lots of extra trips to the local hardware stores.

Truer words were seldom spoken! I'm uniquely fortunate, that I can do a lot of my board-building, testing, and designing ideas at work. I'm rather like a fireman, out of sight, until I'm needed! But, it DOES give me lot's of time. I figured I would be done with most everything by now, all but the displays. However, I am waiting on boards and parts - lot's of them! And I just finished my LEDTriks today. Although I am usually very lucky, when it comes to working first time, I never take it for granted, and have heard of quite a few different "glitches" with the LEDTriks...so, hopefully, tonight I'll have my first run. But, things will, and DO, go wrong...I have a saying - figure out how long it should take, multiply by two, and add a half, and you might be close!


Wait until you have one year of experience under your belt before going for fancy effects and high channel count.

I think this is determined by the person, and the time they have. A suggestion, to someone starting out, that wants a bunch of special effects, sit down, and make just one - if you want 20 leapers, make one, start to finish, and programmed. It would allow you to know exactly how long it would take, for the dream of 20, give you experience, but most of all, help you determine if that's where you want to spend your time. It's something of a decision - do I want a whole bunch of different lights, all over the yard and house, or do I want just the house, a mega tree, with great special effects? Either choice is good, because as was mentioned, it gives you room to grow. Myself, I am concentrating on lot's of lights, on all the windows, and mini-trees, and a huge mega on the deck. I don't see a LOT of special effects, as a lot of that is the programming, and as I am not especially good at it, if I can get the lights and displays to where I want them this year, the special effects can be where 90% of my time will be spent next year.

And yeah, I have some ideas how 16 channels can make a decent mega tree, especially if using LED's...figure 6 strings per channel of leds, times 16? If controlled individually, that's 96 channels. But, with creative placement, and programming, there's a LOT you could do with 16 channels!

Roger

[51fordf2]

Also true with this idea is a mega tree...You simply can't have an awesome mega tree with only 16 channels

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....I have seen Holdman's vids - they are the final inspiration that made me decide to do this. Three colors, only! If I recall, 128 channels, or there-abouts, for the whole display. Excellent job!

But, I have seen mega trees, with perhaps 128+ channels of it's own, that didn't look good to me at all! There really is such a thing as "too much", in my opinion - too many color changes, too many changes too close together, JUST to use all the channels. But then again, it's all a matter of personal taste. I hope my display makes people smile, and remember it. That is the main reason I am doing this...

Years ago, when I played guitar a lot, there was an instructor told me "Don't concentrate on being different, because different does not equate to good. Being different, AND good, is very rare. If you are good, you'll ALWAYS be good, but that doesn't work for different..."

Sometimes less is more...

R

[Warlock]

Once again I totally agree with this comment...It mainly depends on what final effect you are after...As I posted earlier and in my first post it so happens I do not feel that the channel count vs cost is a major issue.I've waited 3 years to dive into this hobby for that exact reason of cost versus what I had available.Since this is the year I have that money available I've done the careful thinking and planning over the last three years to make it possible to do the high channel count I spoke about...The key to alot of newbe's on here is the fact I've been planing this for three years...That has been the key to me even speaking about this was to not rush into anything,plan and plan carefully as best as possible...I for one know I'm gonan blow stuff up..I look forward to it actually...That to me is all part of learning this amazing hobby...One piece of advice that has been given to me from various people I've personally spoke with (mainly stage designers for concerts) is simply that you never have something turn out perfectly the first try.It's a simple fact.While true you do get great results here and there or eliments that you truely love about anything.Personally myself I prefer to be a bit different in the way I do things..Some might say it takes me twice as long to get there but wow do I ever learn alot on the journey getting there and that is what it is all about...Not to say anything is good or bad..Sorry if I left anyone with that impression...As truely nothing is good or bad...Everything anyone does is great...I was simply trying to say don't limit yourself by the work involved or the challanges you read about on the walls here,nor the issues people run into etc....
I was simply stating take the bite for whatever you feel you can handle (which is a personal issue and preference) altho there has to be some general rules with regards to some effects on what channel count works best...Like the example of the leapers..
It has been written many many times from here to LOR boards that the more channels you have the better it will and can look.From what I have seen the same rules apply to mega trees,mini mega trees especially when dealing with more then 2 colors..I've seen as everyone else has some amazing displays with 32 channels and some not so amazing displays with 8 channels..The point of all this simply is to not overwhelm yourself with more then you personally can handle then it takes all the fun outta it...Which then it's of no use to anyone...Which once again brings me around to my origional point...It makes no difference how many channels you use nor does it make a difference how much you spend or don't spend..Simply feel comfortable with what you are going to use.Until that happens nothing you use or do will be what you want it to be in the end..




Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....I have seen Holdman's vids - they are the final inspiration that made me decide to do this. Three colors, only! If I recall, 128 channels, or there-abouts, for the whole display. Excellent job!

But, I have seen mega trees, with perhaps 128+ channels of it's own, that didn't look good to me at all! There really is such a thing as "too much", in my opinion - too many color changes, too many changes too close together, JUST to use all the channels. But then again, it's all a matter of personal taste. I hope my display makes people smile, and remember it. That is the main reason I am doing this...

Years ago, when I played guitar a lot, there was an instructor told me "Don't concentrate on being different, because different does not equate to good. Being different, AND good, is very rare. If you are good, you'll ALWAYS be good, but that doesn't work for different..."

Sometimes less is more...

R