Half Tree

[Santa Don]

Has anyone ever built a half of a Mega tree? I'm thinking about doing one with only the front half strung in order to save valuable channels. This is my first go-round and I have a whopping 32 channels to work with.

Santa Don

[g2ktcf]

It has been done before and with good effect.

[ppohlman]

The only difference is that you can't get the 3D look with a "wedge" sweep - when only a few strands are on at a time chasing around the tree.

[mwo040]

I used the method of stringing the strands from front to back so it was like a mirror image on the back and it looked great. I know it would have been better with more channels. I only had 24 channels to work with in 08 and a lot of stuff to light and control. I fully suggest a full tree but you can get away with mirroring the back side and it will look better than a half tree in my opinion.

[Santa Don]

Great idea on the "mirror image". I'll give that a try. The only problem I see with that is side to side sweeps. But hey, I can live with that. Thanks for the tip.

[mwo040]

Great idea on the "mirror image". I'll give that a try. The only problem I see with that is side to side sweeps. But hey, I can live with that. Thanks for the tip.

By mirroring you if you are using 10 channels you would start with strings 1 go up and down and are next to each other then 2 would be next to the 1 in front and the 1 in back. 3 would be next to 2 in front and 2 in back. 4 by 3 in front and back. and so on. Ending with 10 and 10 next to each other again. Does that make sense. It makes sweeps look really decent actually and spins seem to have a 3d effect

[djulien]

Has anyone ever built a half of a Mega tree? I'm thinking about doing one with only the front half strung in order to save valuable channels. This is my first go-round and I have a whopping 32 channels to work with.

Santa Don

If you don't need multiple colors on at the same time, there are ways to connect it using fewer channels. For example, this past Christmas I ran a 4-color 12-string M-tree using 14 channels. 12 channels were used for the strings on the tree, and 2 were used to select 1-of-4 colors for the tree using 2 relays. Using regular channel wiring, this would have taken 48 channels rather than 14. I can post more info if you are interested.

don

[taybrynn]

I had two "half-megas" this year and they looked pretty good (I thought). Yeah, only doing 4 channels each, I was kind of limited, but surprised how great they were overall.

I made a rooftop holder that held up both with zero attachments into the house. It was basically a wood 2x4 saddle (painted black) that straddled the rooftop and then held up two hooks on either side ... at the same height as the top of roof gable they straddled. This made it possinble to actually go up and over the roof somewhat, making the installation of the ring (holding the wires) easier and safer (over the roof, not over the edge).

So then on the ground, I created (2) 8' 2x4's (painted black) with the $.40 home depot hooks in them. I accidently add one too many hooks, so I ended using 2,2,3,2 (sets of wires per channel). I had 4 channels on each half mega ... and at ~ 60' from the curb ... you couldnt' tell they were not 3D. They did kind of appear like lasers when sequenced back and forth ... which was a cool surprise. They seemed to need more lights (to me) ... and more colors on each side.

Having only one color on each side was the biggest limitation. Each half-mega was 24' up, so two colors on 3 channels and 3 colors on 1 channel (the oops channel) ... per tree ... so 900 lights per half-mega. I probably should have mirrored them, but didn't. It was kind of fun to sometime bounce back and forth from one tree to the other ... so in that sense, mirroring would have been limiting.

I plan on adding another 900 per side in 2009. Set up with very easy. The base was held in place with 4 rebar stakes for stability and two sandbags per half-mega base. Was very simple to install and break-down ... and no impact to the house or roof. The rooftop holder has 4 60lb sandbags on it (overkill, as it had a very minimal wind cross section) ... and was very secure and stable.

Here is a video of them in action (one was green, one was red) ...
http://www.vimeo.com/2529139

[Santa Don]

Woe is me... Which way to go? Thanks for the input. I'll have to mull it over awhile and who knows where I'll end up. I just want to get maximum effect with the 32 channels I have to work with. I think I see at least double that for 2010. I'm just sick because I got the Blinky Bug after the sales were over. Lights! I need lights!

Santa Don

[rstehle]

You might try a post in the "Buy/Sell/Trade" forum. Someone may have some After Christmas Specials they are willing to part with. You might also consider the same type of post over on Planet Christmas.

[davedz]

I'm planning on trying 2 'half' trees, side by side, right in front of 2 regular evergreen trees. The plan is to put up 2 poles w/guy wires.
I like the two colors on the video!
..dz..

[sandy]

The half-M trees can be pretty outstanding.
They get the size of the Mega Tree, and the color changes,
just without any 3D effects.
I use the half-M because my tree is towards the back of the display,
so the 3D visuals wouldn't be very effective.
But using 1 Ren24 there are 3 colors and 8 slices.
Good for color sweeps, and side to side 'motion'.
To save channels, Holdman had a 3D tree but used the back connected across the tree to the front.
I'm thinking about a similar move using one color in back (maybe white) so it only adds 8 more channels, so that leaves another 8 (or 16 on a Ren24) for other tree effects, stars, strobes etc.
Up against a building or a real tree, the half-M can still be very attention getting.

[Skunberg]

If you don't need multiple colors on at the same time, there are ways to connect it using fewer channels. For example, this past Christmas I ran a 4-color 12-string M-tree using 14 channels. 12 channels were used for the strings on the tree, and 2 were used to select 1-of-4 colors for the tree using 2 relays. Using regular channel wiring, this would have taken 48 channels rather than 14. I can post more info if you are interested.

don

Hi Don, I'm interested in what kind of relays you used (the two for color change) and how to wire it for 12 string, 14 channel. Thank's in advance for the insight! Brian

[djulien]

Hi Don, I'm interested in what kind of relays you used (the two for color change) and how to wire it for 12 string, 14 channel. Thank's in advance for the insight! Brian

Brian,

I plan to write this up into an article at some point, but here are links to some of the info...

I used 2 DPDT 120 VAC relays connected to AC SSRs, and strung them together into a 1-of-4 decoder to select the color. If you are not familiar with 1-of-n decoders, here is a post about how to do it with double-pole relays:


Here's a try at a schematic. Sorry about my poor drawing skills. This is trying to show a 1-of-4 decoder, which turns on 1 of 4 output lines based on 2 control signals. The first stage uses a SPDT relay, while the second stage uses a DPDT relay....

Regarding how I connected this in my M-tree, there is a schematic in this post:


Attached is an ExpressPCB schematic that shows how I hooked it up. I used this setup (or slight variations thereof) for about half the display, giving me the equivalent of 200 channels using 112 SSRs.

That schematic shows how to do 5 channels x 4 colors, but it's the same idea for any number of channels (as long as the relays and wiring will handle it). For my M-tree, I used 12 channels in place of the 5 shown in that schematic. Since my layout was already configured for AC SSRs (non-PWM), I used 120 VAC relays, with a C7 across them to keep the relays on (otherwise there is not enough current flowing to keep the Triac turned on). If I had planned more carefully, I could have used 5 VDC relays and/or DC SSRs to skip the extra parts, but either way works.

There are other combinations, also. For example, I limited my M-tree to 1 color at a time, but if you just use 4 SPST relays or SSRs separately (not chained together), then you can turn the colors on or off independently, so you can mix colors (in that case it would take 12 + 4 channels instead of 12 + 2). Also, using SSRs for color control allows fading/mixing of the colors, whereas relays are strictly on/off. Does that makes sense?

[EDIT] I finally wrote up what I did. It is at http://downloads.eshepherdsoflight.com/Howidid-MidiTree.pdf. There is a section showing the SSR wiring diagram, connecting the SSRs, etc.

don

[awhaley]

The secret to making lots happen without a ton of channels is careful planning.

My philosophy, when designing with limited equipment is to thing in terms of two kinds of channels : Broad strokes, and details.

I might very well decide that it is smarter to only use 4 channels for the mega tree, and use those channels to do four solid colors, because I would be treating the element as a broad stroke sort of thing. It's a big change to go from red to green, then to add blue, then to flash it all in white. The colors on the house would also be treated as 'broad strokes-' channels that change the whole look of the display.

Details are things like individual mini trees, snowflakes on the wall, or slices of a mega tree. These detail channels don't change the whole look of the yard, they create movement 'inside' a look defined by the broad strokes channels.

If I were trying to work inside of 32 channels, I wouldn't wind up using many details channels... I'd probably try to use something like 8 channels for detail elements.... this could be 8 mini trees, or 4 snowflakes and 4 individually lit windows, etc...

But the vast majority of my channels would be used for things that made big changes... 4 channels for the megatree colors, 4 channels for the house colors, 1 channel for icicles, one channel for lights all the way around the perimeter of the yard, one channel for each large real tree, one channel for all the bushes.... etc, etc....

If you really love the animated mega tree looks (and who doesn't!) then you might think about using 3 channels for the Red Green and Blue as solid colors, then using 4 or 8 channels for the no color, so you still get the cool spinning and scanning effects, but not in every color...

There's no right or wrong way to do any of this, which is one of the great parts about it. :) But if I were trying to work inside your channel budget, I'd apply some careful planning about how I wanted to use the display before I tied up too many channels on one element.

Art

[Santa Don]

The 32 channel layout I have planned is:

1 roof ridge (white)
2 eaves (white)
3 left window (amber)
4 right window (amber)
5 & 6 canes across the front (even on one channel, odd on another) (red)
7-11 pole (with starburst on top) (white)
12 star (white)
13-15 burst (white)
16 beat track
17-21 1/2 Mega (red)
22-26 1/2 Mega (green) * Both red and green on the same half-tree.
27-32 Mini trees placed diagonally left rear to right front of yard (green)

So, what think ye? Everything looks great on the preview except the Mega Tree. I still need to learn how to manipulate it for good sweeps and chases. But hey, I'm only a couple of days in, so maybe there's hope. It's a fairly small yard; about 40' deep and 50' wide.

I'm debating whether to put the starburst pole separate or on the Mega tree. I'm leaning toward separate elements.

Suggestions?

Santa Don

[WireWrap]

Don't waste a real channel for a beat track. Just add a channel 33 to your profile and define it in the preview setup (channels 1-33). That gives you all your real channels for output.

[Santa Don]

Don't waste a real channel for a beat track. Just add a channel 33 to your profile and define it in the preview setup (channels 1-33). That gives you all your real channels for output.

COOL! I was wondering if a beat track was really necessary. I find I don't make much use of it anyway. At least, in the song I am working on now, I am firing my canes with the beat, which acts as a beat channel for me. I also use the audio visualizer, too.

Thanks Wire, appreciate it.

Santa Don

[awhaley]

Looks like a great layout planned. :)

I'm not sure which I'd do with the starburst pole... It will eventually have to be up to your aesthetics, and how you use it... One the one hand, separating it gives you more elements to work with and so you get more going on... on the other hand, if it were part of the mega tree and we didn't know it until the second song, for example, there would sure be a wow factor because we thought we knew what the trees did, and they they pulled out another trick...

Art

[Santa Don]

I like the idea of saving a few tricks until later in the program. Maybe start out with a slow, simple piece with only a few of the elements working. Then as the show progresses, the big guns come out, like the starburst and Mega tree sweeps. I like it!

Santa Don

[Skunberg]

Brian,

I used 2 DPDT 120 VAC relays connected to AC SSRs, and strung them together into a 1-of-4 decoder to select the color. If you are not familiar with 1-of-n decoders, here is a post about how to do it with double-pole relays:

That schematic shows how to do 5 channels x 4 colors, but it's the same idea for any number of channels (as long as the relays and wiring will handle it). For my M-tree, I used 12 channels in place of the 5 shown in that schematic. Since my layout was already configured for AC SSRs (non-PWM), I used 120 VAC relays, with a C7 across them to keep the relays on (otherwise there is not enough current flowing to keep the Triac turned on). If I had planned more carefully, I could have used 5 VDC relays and/or DC SSRs to skip the extra parts, but either way works.

don

Hi Don, I think I've got this straight in my mind after looking at the schematic. The relays control the neutrals of a color. So for my megatree that use's sixteen strings of green, red, blue (maybe add white) and running it with a Ren24. I have each of the 16 channel hots going to three different color strings. And all the same color neutrals tied together going to a relay. No relays powered is green, one relay powered is red, the other relay powered is blue and both relays powered is white.
Is this much right?

I see you have diodes on each string neutral before it's buss bar. Will I need these? And if so what size/type?

I see a diode bridge at the power supply. What is this for? Will I need this using the Ren24 SSR outputs? Or on the Ren24 input?

And lastly the C7 bulb for the relays, as the Ren24 has triacs I assume I'll need something there also. Would a resistor work rather then a lamp? And if so what size/type would be best?

Thank you very much for the idea and the help!!! It's going to help stretch my budget a long ways! Brian

P.S. With the Ren24 for output, wouldn't 120VAC coil relays work the easiest?

[Skunberg]

The secret to making lots happen without a ton of channels is careful planning.

My philosophy, when designing with limited equipment is to thing in terms of two kinds of channels : Broad strokes, and details.

I might very well decide that it is smarter to only use 4 channels for the mega tree, and use those channels to do four solid colors, because I would be treating the element as a broad stroke sort of thing. It's a big change to go from red to green, then to add blue, then to flash it all in white. The colors on the house would also be treated as 'broad strokes-' channels that change the whole look of the display.

Details are things like individual mini trees, snowflakes on the wall, or slices of a mega tree. These detail channels don't change the whole look of the yard, they create movement 'inside' a look defined by the broad strokes channels.

Art

Hi Art, I fully agree with you. I didn't realize it in these terms. It's what keeps a display from being too busy is what I had thought. But your explanation is much better and gives a different light on it. I currently have a few wire frames and the normal icicle lights. I want to add a megatree as my detail and some red and green flood lights to wash the house as a backdrop. That will be plenty for one year to add. 4800 or 6400 lights on the megatree (three color or four color), 900 icicle lights and three wire frames (two reindeer and Santa's sleigh). I'll have to test this summer to see how many floodlights I need. Maybe you'll be right and the megatree will take over my display. If so I'll have to animate it with slow graceful moves rather than dancing with glee. Thank's Brian

[djulien]

sorry for the late reply ...


Quote:
Hi Don, I think I've got this straight in my mind after looking at the schematic. The relays control the neutrals of a color. So for my megatree that use's sixteen strings of green, red, blue (maybe add white) and running it with a Ren24. I have each of the 16 channel hots going to three different color strings. And all the same color neutrals tied together going to a relay. No relays powered is green, one relay powered is red, the other relay powered is blue and both relays powered is white.
Is this much right?


Yes. There are warnings elsewhere in the forum about putting switching devices on the neutral side because it interrupts the return path of current and creates a potential hazard, but if DPDT relays are used, there will always be a return path ON ONE OF THE STRINGS regardless of which state the relay is in, but the other strings will STILL BE AT LINE POTENTIAL. But do use caution, don't touch live metal, double-check before connecting power, etc, etc. Maybe also just wire a couple of them before you do the whole thing - I made a mistake during my construction, and even did a brief test that seemed to work, but ended up having to take it all apart and redo it. :(

Regarding the color arrangement, interesting - I also used green as the default color and white as the color for when both relays are on.


I see you have diodes on each string neutral before it's buss bar. Will I need these? And if so what size/type?

I see a diode bridge at the power supply. What is this for? Will I need this using the Ren24 SSR outputs? Or on the Ren24 input?


In essence, I used incandescent bulbs connected in a row/column matrix, similar to how LEDs are typically connected in a matrix. LEDs only pass current in one direction, but incandescent bulbs will pass current in either direction. This means that if you are using AC and turn on one circuit, there will actually be several return paths back through the other strings. I added diodes to prevent those extra paths (otherwise you get multiple strings turning on when you only wanted one).

The diodes were rated at 400V, 1A (1N4004), which was a little overkill here, but I had a bunch of them (I got 300 of them from AllElectronics.com for a few $). It's better to over-spec them than under-spec them!

With the diodes in series with the bulbs, they only get half of the AC cycle. They will work okay that way, but are dimmer. To return to full brightness, I placed a bridge ahead of the SSRs, so that the bulbs always get AC cycles of the correct polarity, no longer missing half of the AC cycles. If your lights are bright enough on half the AC cycle, you can skip the bridge, but you still need the diodes to prevent the back-paths.


And lastly the C7 bulb for the relays, as the Ren24 has triacs I assume I'll need something there also. Would a resistor work rather then a lamp? And if so what size/type would be best?

The C7s (or C9s, or anything that draws a little power) were needed because the relay coils did not draw enough current for the triacs to stay on. The best solution to that is to use PWM, so the SSR is forced to stay on the whole time. I didn't want to go back and change my controller since it was already set for non-PWM operation. So, a work-around was to place the C7 across the relay coil, to increase the current drawn so the SSR would stay turned on.

A resistor would work. I tried one, but it got very hot after a few seconds, so it looked like I would need a *very* heavy one, several 10s of watts. I didn't have those on hand, and they are expensive, so a bulb was the easiest work-around.


Thank you very much for the idea and the help!!! It's going to help stretch my budget a long ways! Brian

P.S. With the Ren24 for output, wouldn't 120VAC coil relays work the easiest?

I'm glad that the info is helpful. As you probably already know, there is a time vs. $ trade-off here - hooking up the diodes and relays takes some extra time, but, yes, a lot cheaper since you can use 1/2, 1/3, even 1/4 the number of SSRs (and the sequencing grid in Vixen is also smaller, making it a little easier to deal with).

Yes, the relay coils I used were 120 VAC. Sorry, I thought I said that in the explanation. The first 1-of-4 decoder didn't show it, but the 4x5 multiplexing one should have.

Note that the AC running through the 120 VAC relay coils should *not* be rectified - it needs to bypass the bridge, otherwise the relay will turn on okay, but will never turn off.

Now you could use 5 VDC relay coils and drive them either directly or via a DC SSR, and then that would eliminate the need for the C7s/C9s, etc, and that is simpler, but I used 120 VAC because I only had an AC SSR to hook it to at the time.

EDIT: be sure to check that the relays are rated for the number of lights you want to use. For example, I used 12 strings of 100 ct. mini-lights for each color of the tree, so there would be up to 12 x 1/3 A = 4 A thru each relay. I used relays with about 10 A contact rating because that's what I had on hand and they were only $2 each. If you are using more strings then just make sure that the relay contacts will handle it. If you're using LEDs, it won't be an issue due to the lower current. BTW, an interesting "feature" of this arrangement is that the double-throw nature of the relays limits the amount of current the tree will take. In my setup, it was not possible for the tree to ever draw more than 4A, so that was a bit of a safety factor. I think I've read in other posts of people who laid out their power distribution such that they needed to ensure that they don't turn on the whole tree at the same time, etc. With the 1-of-4 decoder approach, you can't turn it all on at the same time no matter what you do in Vixen (if it's wired correctly), so it's a bit of a power safety feature.

I assume that if you made it this far that you are fairly familiar with electrical concepts, so I didn't explain in too much detail above. I can go into more detail if you'd like - just let me know.

BTW, I have some construction photos if they would be helpful. I'll be writing this all up into a document, but just haven't done it yet. I will make a note to specifically cover the areas above that you've asked about.

don

[WireWrap]

...
Yes. There are warnings elsewhere in the forum about putting switching devices on the neutral side because it interrupts the return path of current and creates a potential hazard, but if DPDT relays are used, there will always be a return path regardless of which state the relay is in, so I don't think it's an issue.
...
don

Actually, that's NOT true. You are supplying voltage to the "hot" side of your light strings by way of the SSRs, so whenever a string is powered, there is power supplied to all four colored strings associated with that SSR. Only one of the strings' "cold" side is connected to the neutral through the relay tree (causing it to light), but the other three strings are at the same potential as applied to the "hot" side -- no current, so no voltage drop. If it is programmed for 100% -- then you have full line voltage on the entire length of the three "unselected" strings and on the three relay contacts connected to them. This could reach out & bite you (or someone else) if you're not careful. :shock: :shock: :shock:

[djulien]

Actually, that's NOT true. You are supplying voltage to the "hot" side of your light strings by way of the SSRs, so whenever a string is powered, there is power supplied to all four colored strings associated with that SSR. Only one of the strings' "cold" side is connected to the neutral through the relay tree (causing it to light), but the other three strings are at the same potential as applied to the "hot" side -- no current, so no voltage drop. If it is programmed for 100% -- then you have full line voltage on the entire length of the three "unselected" strings and on the three relay contacts connected to them. This could reach out & bite you (or someone else) if you're not careful. :shock: :shock: :shock:

True. Thank you for pointing that out. I was thinking in terms of there being "any" path back to neutral, not "all" paths back. I'll edit the previous post.

don

[djulien]

I know I can get these Ren24 3.3 boards, parts and solder them up.

I did not use the Ren24, but all the pieces will be there (although laid out differently), so it's just a matter of locating the correct connection points. I found a picture on the wiki, so I'll make suggestions based on that, or you can verify with the actual board in front of you and/or the schematic. Please note that I am not too familiar with the Ren24, so if my comments don't match with what you see on the Ren24 board, I'll need to look at it more closely.


Being that I decided on the Ren24 to run this tree, it has 120vac outputs and input. So that's why I thought 120vac coil relays would be best for me.

The 120 VAC relays will work, but since you're starting with a PCB, it would actually be easier to use 5 VDC or 120 VDC relays (details below).


Now the rectifier in this case, does it go on my input before the transformer on the Ren24? (just like your 4x5 SSR7 mux)(I don't know anything about the ssr7 other than it's in your drawing).

A few thoughts before modifying the Ren24:
- for testing and support purposes, it might be easier to build it the standard way first, and then test it to make sure it is working. That way, if there is a problem with it, you'll know that it is not related to these mods, and there would be more people able to provide assistance; the mods needed for rectified AC are fairly localized.
- also, compare the brightness of your lights with and without a diode in series to see how much difference there is in brightness; if it is not significant, then you may not even need to use the rectified AC, which would cut out most of the steps of the mods
- also, verify that your relays will not, in fact, work with rectified AC; put a diode in series with the relay and then give it a brief AC control pulse to check if it closes and then opens again. If it does, you don't need to worry about using rectified AC with the relays, which will simply the mods

The Ren24 has an on-board power supply and on-board SSRs, so that would mean that the 120 VAC goes to both of those, probably as separate paths. I would leave the power supply/transformer part of it alone, since those parts were selected based on a regular AC and that functionality is needed in order to power the chips. It might work to change it, but it seems safer to just change the SSR part of the board and leave the power supply and logic chips as-is.

For the path that goes to the SSRs, there are actually 2 separate sides to the board, so there would be a separate path going to each side, running thru the fuse first, then on to the optos + triacs.

The idea is to use rectified AC for most of the SSRs, but regular AC for just the 2 relays. So 2 of the SSRs need to be "separated off" so they can have regular AC, while the rest get rectified AC. If you will be using 12 or fewer strings in your tree, you could also just make one side of the Ren24 rectified, and leave the other side as-is, and then you would control the relays from the regular side and the tree strings from the rectified side.

If you wanted to rectify one entire side of the board, you would need to cut the AC supply traces before they go to the first SSR and insert the bridge there, then connect the output from the bridge to supply the SSRs. You could do that before or after the fuse, whichever is more convenient, since the fuse will protect in either case (probably a little safer to do it after the fuse).

If you only wanted to leave 2 SSRs unrectified for the relays, then you would need to rectify SSRs on both sides of the board. The simplest mod would be cut the 120 VAC supply AFTER the first 2 SSRs on one side of the board, insert the bridge there and then connect the output to feed the remaining 10 SSRs. And then also insert a bridge for the entire other side. Or, you could leave just the first SSR unrectified on each side of the board.

The SSR7 I used was just a 7-channel version of the regular 4-channel AC SSR. I used 7 channels because I wanted to use all the copper in the cat5, instead of leaving some of it unused. I actually used 2, one as shown and the other just driving the lights, somewhat analogous to the 2 sides of the Ren24 board.


Note that the AC running through the 120 VAC relay coils should *not* be rectified - it needs to bypass the bridge, otherwise the relay will turn on okay, but will never turn off.

I don't fully understand but I can follow this.


See note above - this may vary depending on the specific relay you use.

(In case you wanted to know...) The relay is just an electromagnet that pulls a spring-loaded metal arm to close some contacts, and when the magnetic field stops the spring pulls the arm back to open the contacts. In my case, the relay seemed to need the reserved polarity to release, and it never got it because the supply voltage was always the same polarity. So I had to bypass the rectifier bridge in order to use those relays.


I haven't bought the relays yet, but I have a few 8 pin DPDT 12amp 240vac contacts with 24vac coils. The 5vdc you mention how would this connect to the two channels on the ren24? I'm willing to buy some if it'll work better with the Ren24.

If you don't already have the relays, then you can choose a type that will make the mods a lot simpler. Above, I was explaining how you would use 120 VAC relays. If you can get either 5 VDC relays or 120 VDC relays, that will make life simpler.

To use 5 VDC relays, you would basically connect the coil in place of the optoisolator on 2 of the SSRs, or you could connect it in parallel so that you had a relay and an SSR for those 2 channels, so you would preserve the functionality of the 24 SSRs on the board, and just be adding 2 relays. The contacts on the relay would still need to be rated for 120 VAC and several amps, depending on the type and how many strings you wanted to control.

Relays with 120 VDC coils would also work - in that case you would connect the coil to the output of the SSR (possibly with a C7 or C9 across to allow the SSR to stay on), but you wouldn't need to isolate a couple of the SSRs so that some were rectified and some were not.


I do home and light commercial electrical and work on my own cars, so electrical isn't too bad. However electronic is not very good.

You should be okay, then. These mods are all just electrical, related to routing or inserting a bridge mainly.


I jumped into this thinking that a ren24 was a computer interface for turning 120vac items on and off. I hope this helps give you a idea where my skills and lack of are.

Well, it is (and it does dimming too).

Please let me know if you have more questions about the mods I did. For general Ren24 questions, you'll probably get more helpful info directly from those that are familiar with the Ren24, since I am not too familiar with it.

don

[Skunberg]

I did not use the Ren24, but all the pieces will be there (although laid out differently), so it's just a matter of locating the correct connection points. I found a picture on the wiki, so I'll make suggestions based on that, or you can verify with the actual board in front of you and/or the schematic. Please note that I am not too familiar with the Ren24, so if my comments don't match with what you see on the Ren24 board, I'll need to look at it more closely.

I'm in the co-op for two ren24 3.3 boards and just missed out on the group parts buy. So online info is all I have.



A few thoughts before modifying the Ren24:
- for testing and support purposes, it might be easier to build it the standard way first, and then test it to make sure it is working. That way, if there is a problem with it, you'll know that it is not related to these mods, and there would be more people able to provide assistance; the mods needed for rectified AC are fairly localized.
- also, compare the brightness of your lights with and without a diode in series to see how much difference there is in brightness; if it is not significant, then you may not even need to use the rectified AC, which would cut out most of the steps of the mods
- also, verify that your relays will not, in fact, work with rectified AC; put a diode in series with the relay and then give it a brief AC control pulse to check if it closes and then opens again. If it does, you don't need to worry about using rectified AC with the relays, which will simply the mods

I agree and had originally planned to build the board normal and the relays with special wired outlets in a separate enclosure.


The Ren24 has an on-board power supply and on-board SSRs, so that would mean that the 120 VAC goes to both of those, probably as separate paths. I would leave the power supply/transformer part of it alone, since those parts were selected based on a regular AC and that functionality is needed in order to power the chips. It might work to change it, but it seems safer to just change the SSR part of the board and leave the power supply and logic chips as-is.

The SSR7 I used was just a 7-channel version of the regular 4-channel AC SSR. I used 7 channels because I wanted to use all the copper in the cat5, instead of leaving some of it unused. I actually used 2, one as shown and the other just driving the lights, somewhat analogous to the 2 sides of the Ren24 board.

Maybe I should get a ssroz board or some other small two or more channel board to run the relays. Then I could customize it and minimize alterations to the ren24. And use what ever relay would use the least parts and least problematic to wire, ect.


(In case you wanted to know...) The relay is just an electromagnet that pulls a spring-loaded metal arm to close some contacts, and when the magnetic field stops the spring pulls the arm back to open the contacts. In my case, the relay seemed to need the reserved polarity to release, and it never got it because the supply voltage was always the same polarity. So I had to bypass the rectifier bridge in order to use those relays.

Very good explanation! Thank's! Brian

[djulien]

Maybe I should get a ssroz board or some other small two or more channel board to run the relays. Then I could customize it and minimize alterations to the ren24. And use what ever relay would use the least parts and least problematic to wire, ect.

Yes, driving the relays from a separate SSR board would minimize changes to the Ren24, since it would avoid needing to separate the SSRs into rectified vs. non-rectified. Depending on your half-wave brightness test (with the diode in series with your light string), you may or may not even need to modify the SSRs on the Ren24 board for rectified AC.

don

[djulien]

I have been wanting to ask these questions...

1. Does the Dimining Still work with this color selector setup?
2. Do you just drive the Dbl throw relays from the optos?
3. Can someone with that type of setup post a wiring diagram

1. Yes

2. There are several ways to do it. Since I had some relays with 120 VAC coils, I just drove them from a regular AC SSR (with a C7 in parallel for minimum load, since my PICs were non-PWM at the time). However, you could use relays with 5 VDC coils and connect them directly to the optos or even an RJ45 from the controller.

3. By "wiring diagram", do you mean like a block diagram, or actual schematic?
There are some schematics earlier in this thread. I can work on a block diagram if the info earlier in this thread needs more details.

don