At What Point Do LED's Become Cheaper To Use?

[cm11599ps]

I understand how LED's use much less power so they're cheaper to run. They are also a LOT more expensive.

With animated displays that have lights going on and off all the time you're already using less power then you would be if you had a static display.

Since that's the case, are LED's really worth it cost wise?

[ukewarrior]

Depends what you are replacing.

I'm replacing C7's.

I did the math and going to LEDs will pay for the new LED strings in less then one season with electricity cost.
This is a total no brainer for me.
I was going to dump the C7's anyhow due to the cost of power.
The cost of power ratio between C7's and LEDs is almost 100 to 1.
Remember, the Watt's used by ONE C7 bulb is MORE then an entire 50 count LED string. In fact, you can use 2 to 4 LED strings to equal the power used by one C7 bulb depending on the LED color.


Mini's are hard to compare because you can get minis almost for free if you shop the after Christmas sales and score 70% or 80% off.

Lets say you get 100 Minis and a two 50 LED strings right now.
I can get minis for $1.25 and the LEDs for $5 each.
The cost of power ratio between minis and LEDs is about 6 to 1.
If you burn the minis for 6 hours a day for 30 days you may spend $6 for the 100 lights in electricity.
For 100 LEDs you would spend $1.
(These are close to actual numbers at 12 cents a kilowatt hour)

So, you spent $1.25 for the minis and $6 on power -> $7.50
You spent $10 for the LEDs (need 2 strings) and $1 on power -> $11
If would take a bit over two seasons to pay for the LEDs.

I am moving up from a static to a dynamic display and my light count is going from a few hundred into the thousands.
So, investing in LEDs seems like a good idea to me.
Plus, the LEDs come with multi-year warranties if you shop around.

[ron d]

factor in potential life, leds are more durable also and less annoying dealing with broken bulbs.
I struggled with deciding until finally i knew i was going to eventually go that route so just used my long term plans as a reason and decided not to deal with buying incans and replacing them later and having my initial light investment goto waste.
It only hurts for a little while after you pay for them but after you see them its worth it.

[bmcgeeny]

I understand how LED's use much less power so they're cheaper to run. They are also a LOT more expensive.

With animated displays that have lights going on and off all the time you're already using less power then you would be if you had a static display.

Since that's the case, are LED's really worth it cost wise?

Plus they look horrible.

[RJ]

Plus they look horrible.

:confused: What!!

I can not see LEDS every being cheaper for all but the big high power bulbs. But the first show when you light them up and see the colors and brightness if you have the right LEDS, you will never go back.

I will back this up by saying this, how many people can you find that have bought a good number of good brand leds and then went back to Incd lights?

I can show you lots that have bought a good number of good leds and then bought enough to replace everylight in the show afterwards.

I have defective LEDS this year and the people still come up after the show and go on and on about how much colorful and brighter the display is this year.

Hope this puts a perspective on it for you.

RJ

[petefats]

I have defective LEDS this year and the people still come up after the show and go on and on about how much colorful and brighter the display is this year.
RJ

These people have spontaneously combusted, they require a fire extinguisher. :)

[bmcgeeny]

:confused: What!!

I can not see LEDS every being cheaper for all but the big high power bulbs. But the first show when you light them up and see the colors and brightness if you have the right LEDS, you will never go back.

I will back this up by saying this, how many people can you find that have bought a good number of good brand leds and then went back to Incd lights?

I can show you lots that have bought a good number of good leds and then bought enough to replace everylight in the show afterwards.

I have defective LEDS this year and the people still come up after the show and go on and on about how much colorful and brighter the display is this year.

Hope this puts a perspective on it for you.

RJ

And I have gotton the exact opposite reaction. The local judging was last night, and the guy who sponsors the local contest called today to say how glad he was that somebody was still using real Christmas lights. Now mind you most homeowners go to Target/Home Depot/ Lowes/Menards and buy them off the shelf. But that's exactly what I would do if I were to switch. I have some and I won't even put them up.

And none of those even look remotely close to a mini light. So if there are good ones out there, I have not seen them. And with all the rectifier/do these dim/are they full or half wave/the bulbs are falling out/they don't match/ posts, I just went out and bought another 200 strings at $1.69.

I know, I know. I like them because I got them. Kind of like the "what is the best controller?' Well the one I got of course" But I don't see much talk about "well I don't have them but they are way better than what I got"

Power consumption aside, I don't know how I would ever switch out 30-40 thousand lights at $15 per 100.

[bmcgeeny]

:confused: What!!

I can not see LEDS every being cheaper for all but the big high power bulbs. But the first show when you light them up and see the colors and brightness if you have the right LEDS, you will never go back.
RJ


Oh, and I did. I have about 5,000 of them in the shed I won't put up.

[cm11599ps]

Power consumption aside, I don't know how I would ever switch out 30-40 thousand lights at $15 per 100.


That's what I'm saying. How can it possibly be cheaper to run led's in an animated manner? The upfront cost of LED's is so much more. Didn't someone say that someone has a display and their power bill only goes up $8 while running a huge LED show. That's fine, but is the cheaper power bill worth it compared to the upfront cost?

[bmcgeeny]

That's what I'm saying. How can it possibly be cheaper to run led's in an animated manner? The upfront cost of LED's is so much more. Didn't someone say that someone has a display and their power bill only goes up $8 while running a huge LED show. That's fine, but is the cheaper power bill worth it compared to the upfront cost?

I know my show is not huge, but I added 20,000 lights this year. Went from a out of the box blinky system to a 186 Channel DIY system. My electric bill just came and it included the first 20 days I had the show running. It is $30 more than last month and $40 less than last year. Go figure.

I need to go see a LARGE LED setup that a DIY'cr uses. I know what I am looking at are static lights, bought by people who just wanted to go green and hang lights. Got them at Home Depot or Target or Menards or Lowes, whoever had the best price that day. THOSE SUCK.

I want to see a 30-40 thousand animated, not in video up close and personal. I don't think anybody will deny they are DIFFERENT. Before I spend $10,000 changeing over I want to see the good ones.

[deplanche]

A local town here has changed the rules of their decorating contest to give more points to displays that include the use of LED lights becuase of the lower energy use. While one house using them probably doesn't make a difference, if a whole town were to change over, that is a big savings in energy use.

[bmcgeeny]

A local town here has changed the rules of their decorating contest to give more points to displays that include the use of LED lights becuase of the lower energy use. While one house using them probably doesn't make a difference, if a whole town were to change over, that is a big savings in energy use.

Now ain't that PC (politically correct) Not Planet Christmas.

Displays should be judged on the artistic quality, ONLY.

But, I spose we gotta "feel" good.

I suppose they don't mention the environmntal impacts of disposing of these when they are done?

[Trepidati0n]

Now ain't that PC (politically correct) Not Planet Christmas.

Displays should be judged on the artistic quality, ONLY.

But, I spose we gotta "feel" good.

I suppose they don't mention the environmntal impacts of disposing of these when they are done?

That is scary statement to make...are you saying the ends justify the means? Yes, thinking about how much crap of our animated lights and up in a landfill should start playing a factor in how we do our displays. It shouldn't be the factor...but it should play some part.

The judge who said "nobody has real christmas lights" is probably the same guy who can't program his VCR either and thinks all new music on the radio is crap. He probably thought the olympic venues looked liek crap too. Part of being an artist and a judge of art is evolving.

Sorry...but LED's aren't the problem, it is how people are using the LED's.

[Michael]

For me it was cheaper to use LED's for my roof lights.
I was able to run all of the LED's on my roof with just 3 channels because I can string them all along one one big circuit. I calculated that with mini's I would need to use about 24 channels to handle the amp load. That would mean mounting 1 or 2 REN16 control boxes on the roof and lots of extension cords spidering the shingles or laying in the gutters.

I do notice a difference in the color of white, but red, green, and blue match with my other mini's fairly close. As I switch more of my display over to LED in the years to come, there will be less of a difference.

- Michael

[phenagan]

I suppose they don't mention the environmntal impacts of disposing of these when they are done?

If the strings are ROHS and they're recycled for the metals and plastics, they should have a very minimal environmental impact - no different than a regular bulb based string.

[jpb]

I am in Aus where pretty much all our lights are low voltage and based on that ......
There are good LEDs and bad LEDs. IMHO one of the biggest problems I see with LEDs is the viewing angle. They are brilliant when viewed end on but can lack impact from the side unless wide angle or fitted with a diffuser. I have a mix of both and will gradually move to LED as I replace the older strings. One huge benefit of LED I see (others will disagree) is the lack of blown bulbs. This is a huge plus up on the roof where they can be difficult to replace.

[sjwilson122]

Had to stick my two cents worth in. Did some research on recycling of the leds and other lights. From what I am reading at numerous recycling sites leds have less enviromental impact than glass bulbs. Reasons stated were, longer life span of the leds versus incandescent bulbs (less of them showing up in landfills) and the high heat needed to melt glass versus much lower heat to melt the led and plastic. The worst offender for recycling is the CF or compact flourescent bulb that are all the rage now. They are considered hazardous waste and are only suppossed to be recycled at a handfull of sites spread across the country (U.S.) These contain mercury and phosphorus which are both listed as hazardous. There is also a very real possibility that mini lights could be outlawed in the US soon. I believe they are already mandating the outlaw of incandescent lights and switch to other forms of lights, such as LED, CF and CCFL starting in 2010 (if I recall correctly).

Will LEDs ever be cheaper, who knows. The price has been comming down. I remember paying $15.00 a string a few years ago and they were crap. Very dim, 1/2 wave and they did not have white. Bought some of the newer ones, two years ago and again last year on sale for $5.00 a string and man what a difference. They are brighter than the minis, colors more vibrant and I can run a whole lot more of them with less power. The only minor complaint with some of the strings (the ones that look like regular minis) is they are some what directional in there light output. The other strings have the C-7 caps and look great. If a good set of minis cost me $2.99 and last two years I consider myself lucky. Some of my LED strings are on season three and still look new and work fine (Knock on wood). If I get four to five years out of one set of LEDS compared to two or three sets of minis for the same time frame then I consider myself ahead. Will I change over to LEDs, yes. Will I miss the nostalgia of the warm glow of the minis, C-7s and C-9s, yes I will. They bring back childhood memories. And I will keep one special part of my display that uses 36 C-7 bulbs as long as I can. But when it has to go, I will not miss having to change almost every C-7 bulb every year do to sun fade.

Scott

[toodle_pipsky]

I am in Aus where pretty much all our lights are low voltage and based on that ......


Like J said - low voltage here. And LEDs are still very expensive here, although that hasn't stopped them walking off the shelves. I think the buzz words "energy saving" are what catches people's attention. I just bought a string of white 96 LEDs to scope them out and they were $19.95, that was 1/2 price.

Just a stab in the dark (hehehe pun), but I'd say the people who would see the most benefit in buying LEDs based purely on a cost effective strategy would be those who do static displays. It will be interesting when the power bill comes in to see just how much the lights effected the bill - I'm not expecting by much.

Might be worth chucking some dummy data into the Watt Meter in Vixen to just compare LED stats with incandescent stats. ???

Additional!!! Didn't someone mention about putting more LEDs on one channel? That's a really good point. Maybe that, and not so much the energy saving $$, is the benefit to the animated crowd?

[bmcgeeny]

Had to stick my two cents worth in. Did some research on recycling of the leds and other lights. From what I am reading at numerous recycling sites leds have less enviromental impact than glass bulbs. Reasons stated were, longer life span of the leds versus incandescent bulbs (less of them showing up in landfills) and the high heat needed to melt glass versus much lower heat to melt the led and plastic. ............

Scott

Problem is 99% of these just end up in a garbage can which goes to the incinerator or the landfill.

Yes if they do last longer less strings will end up there, but not many less. That's because DIYC's will care for them and fix them and use them for many years.

The average homeowner will do the same thing they do with mini lights. Every year is the same conversation "We better go get some Christmas lights to replace the ones that don't work" These will be looked at as disposable just like mini lights are.

As for CFL's. Yes the are supposed to be considered hazardous waste, but since they cost $3 -$4 new but our county charges $12 to recycle them most end up in the trash can, then to the incinerator or the landfill. Ten years we will be wondering where the mercury levels in our groundwater came from just like we did with fish.
I am proud to say I am no longer poisoning the earth as all my CFL's have gone bad I put regular old Edison bulbs in. And my electricity is green. Within 40 miles of me there are nearly 1000 windmills.

[cruizer]

I don't even want to calculate how much money I've spent on incandescent bulbs the last couple of years. They're so cheap, that if I get a strand with a section out, I quickly check for broken or lose bulds, if I can't find one, I just toss it and get a new strand. I replaced 15 stands this year, all of which were new last year.

"If one bulb goes out, the rest stay lit." my butt. Every one of them strands that was out, not a singe bulb was broken or lose. And now on my Mega Tree, I have 5 strands that are half dead, and two that are fully dead. They all worked when I put them up.

The other problem I have is that last year when I built the Mega Tree, I designed it for the Menards brands of lights. Apparently between last year and this this year, they got a new manufacturer, as the strings are now a foot and a half shoter.

Now my icicle lights, When tested inside, they all worked. by the time I got them from the dining room table to the garage, one strand had 12 broken lights in one section! I got mad, chucked the whole box of them, and went and got white LED icicles. My friend came by and watched the show, then afterwards called me and wanted to know where I gold mini-lights at. Turns out becuase of the LED's, he thought the incandescents were gold!

[leroylee13]

Can the LEDs intensity be varied or are they strictly on/off? I like the looks of fades so I've avoided the LEDs.

[Trepidati0n]

Can the LEDs intensity be varied or are they strictly on/off? I like the looks of fades so I've avoided the LEDs.

What made you think that they "couldn't" be dimmed?

[bmcgeeny]

Can the LEDs intensity be varied or are they strictly on/off? I like the looks of fades so I've avoided the LEDs.

They can, but they shouldn't be. The good ones have electronics in them that tends to go bad with dimming and blinky flashy. And the cheap ones, well they are just cheap.

I had another comment this morning about all the lights down my street. Lots. But a question. "What are them ones that look all grey and hazy"

[pixeldigger]

The LEDs are much cheaper to operate than installing a new service to handle the amps of the incandescent strings.

Anyone at my display that asks me about the power bill get my "the power bill is not an issue compared to the price of lights, cords, wires and electronics" speech.

I honestly can't tell you how much extra electricity it is costing me. I have levelized billing, and I don't really look at the meter reading.

As for looks. I prefer Red, green and Blue in LED, and Gold and White in incandescent. I hope for next season to have all of my RG and B replaced with LEDs.

[daredwood]

I am tapped out for power with the desire to add more lights. Led's seem to be cheaper when you are talking about adding another panel. My question and maybe inappropriate location but is it more cost effective to convert the current incadescent lights that I possess to LED's?

[Trip]

I have seen some all LED houses in my area and I just don't like em. Too friggin bright. Almost blinds you, it's hard to look at the house to enjoy the lights. However, these were static displays, since I have control over mine, running them dimmed instead of full bright would be an option. I am considering converting my blues, I just don't like the whites.

[Superfreak3]

I would love to switch to LEDs too, but the cost is just too much at this point. I only had a couple hundred minis this year, but I'm moving to about 7,000 in '09 (small chips I know). They're not all on at one time and my 25 minute show will run about 4 times a night with some background sequences running in between. I'm not sure that the cost of LEDs is really worth it at this time, but like I said I would someday like to switch.

Someone told me that the White House was decorated with LEDs and during the TV tour with Laura, I guess, she said that all should switch to LEDs. Well that's all well and good, but can we get some type of stimulus package or gov't refund with proof of purchase to offset the cost.

Maybe we should all contact our local legislators and ask to push through something that will give some money back if we purchase LEDs! :D

[phenagan]

Maybe we should all contact our local legislators and ask to push through something that will give some money back if we purchase LEDs! :D


Be careful what up ask for - our power company has been giving a $2.00 rebate for CFLs and LEDs for the past few years and is now wanting to raise our rates because people don't use enough power!

[Warlock]

Simply put leds are 95% more efficent then regular bulbs.$.08 is the going rate for me per kilowatt hour.So given that my bill is only an extra $22.00 for the month.Lights on Dec 1st and off January 1st...So thanks to leds my bill was 1/16 of my bill last year at the same rate..

[joneslights]

"If one bulb goes out, the rest stay lit." my butt. Every one of them strands that was out, not a singe bulb was broken or lose. And now on my Mega Tree, I have 5 strands that are half dead, and two that are fully dead. They all worked when I put them up.




I had NO incad. strings go out, however most of the LEDs quit working. When I take them down, I'll figure out why. Most of the LEDs were new.

[Sloanhaus]

Had all regular bulbs this year accept for Icicles were led, and the led's held up much better. I had about 320 strands of regular lights and I must of lost 100 of them to wind breaking the bulbs and having to throw out all the blue ones as they faded in the Florida sun. Didnt lose any led strands. After christmas I got 900 boxes of leds at 1.65 a piece,,, at that price, I think they are a much better investment. The Blue Regular lights dont even compare to Led's. Because we can control the intensity you can run your show at 60 percent which looks really nice, but really throw on the thrusters when a strong chorus comes on... And by the way, Leds fade well, I faded mine all christmas, you just have to set your intensity levels right.