New user, same old questions I'm sure

[Blackbeard]

New to the hobby, the forum, everything. I've got a few questions that might make it easier for me, but I would imagine they are old hat for the regulars here and probably a little redundant in nature.

Sorry if they've been answered before, but I've wore my eyes out searching for all of the answers.

One of the questions that keeps popping us is which controller. I kind of like the Renards (24 or 64 or 64XC). I have bounced back and forth between the old and current(this one) forum trying to decide on the version. Do all versions need be fully populated to be functional? Can I only add the first 24 channel components to a 64 to reduce startup costs?

I don't see any place for prices for the coop boards, and see I should post to johnw for cost and availability. I understand the reason for this - prices change so why post old data. So I'll write him shortly unless there is something that is kept up-to-date that someone can point me to.

RS232 or RS485 or both. Is this possible? I have a 500 foot frontage. I could use most of it, but obviously, I'll start slowly (and cheaply). It would be nice to be able to keep the old with the new as I traverse the frontage over the coming years.

Has anyone attempted a version of the Renard boards using AVRs instead of PICs. I have pretty much everything I need to program AVRs. Never used a PIC. Haven't compared the 16F688 to anything in the AVR line, so I can't really say that it would be cheaper either way. It might be worth a shot, though, if I get some time and a better understanding of the current board. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just a matter of preference.

I see that there is a different firmware switch for PWM, and I'm going to guess this is mostly for LEDs, but see where it could be both LED and non-LED. Does one controller need to be used with just one type of bulb?

I'm really sorry for all the wind I'm causing. I was in a Home Depot the other day, and say one of the GE/Mr. Christmas units, and just got hooked. My wife is disabled, and really wants some Christmas specialties, as she doesn't get out much. She lit up as much as the lights on the demo we watched as we viewed it, so I thought it sounded like a great project for me and benefit to her.

There's no real rush as this would be a 2009 project, but thanks for any help and knowledge anyone can provide.

[g2ktcf]

Let me be the first to Welcome you to DIYC!

I am not that experienced as I am building my first few boards now. What I do have a great feel for is the cost. If you like the Renards, then you should consider the Renard24 (onboard SSRs) or the Renard64 (external SSRs). The real cost of this process is the SSRs. These can run $4+ a channel depending upon how you build them. However, if you choose to build the Renard64, you can build as many SSRs as you would like. However, I would build out the entire controller board as the components for it are not that expensive.

A great first time board from what I hear is the Grinch but I will let those with experience mention that (not dimmable without external controls).

As for AVRs, of course it could be done. However, no one has a design or firmware for one. All the Renards and FireGod systems run on PICs. The new LEDTricks-C uses a tiny but it seems to be the only one.

wjohn is the guy with the boards for SSRz, Ren64 XC, and a few others.

Hope this helps a little bit.

[Michael]

Welcome Blackbeard.

As far as which Renard board to use, that depends mostly on how you will arrange items in your yard. I use the REN16 because it seemed to fit most in most of my places, and reduces extension cords. The others are just as good if they fit your yard. Some also mix boards, but I do not want to get into those issues.

All of the boards here are either made a few at a time at home, or a coop forms to have a bunch made for a cheap price. The coops for this year are over, but there will probably be several next year. There are a few people that order extra to keep in stock. Contact them to see what the current asking price is. It is good to see you are not trying to get something going for this year because it is probably too late for that.

RS232 vs RS485:
RS232 has limited distance for a good signal 6-50 feet.
RS485 can go very long distances, some say up to 4000 feet.
The issue is usually only from the computer to the first board. Is it over 20 ft? then get a cheap RS232-RS485 converter for under $10 on ebay. The boards communicate with RS485 to each other and distance here should not be any problem.

PWM vs non-PWM
non-PWM works for standard light strands. Uses less 12vdc power to run the board. One small wall wort transformer can power 6-10 REN16's, but only about 3 with PWM

non-PWM will flicker or give stranges results if there is not enough power draw on the channel to lock the TRIAC open, as is the case with some LED's. A fix I use for this is to just add a single C9 bulb to the circuit.

PWM works great with all channels. I have not found any problems except extra power draw.

All very good questions you asked.

- Michael

[ukewarrior]

Blackbeard,

Don't be in too big a hurry to buy boards just yet.
Since you're looking at 2009, you should wait until april/may to see what new wonders this group is developing.

I know for a fact that a new control board with a wireless connection to your PC will go to coop next year! Work is being done on that and who know's what else??!!

If you want to spend some money now, I suggest you stockpile and buy lots of lights and electrical parts during the 'after' christmas markdowns.

If you don't have an electrical workbench, you should also plan to get a few tools and a good temp controlled soldering iron, solder sucker, etc...

I'm sure you'll get plenty of advice if you ask on this forum!

Welcome aboard.

[Blackbeard]

Thanks all for the welcome and advice.

I thought about the spacing of the controller and version of renard board after I posted. I also looked up some info on the PIC used, and don't think it would be too hard to convert to an AVR, but haven't figured out which AVR is equivalent as far as IO pins, PWM, etc. I use Eagle to design with, so I'll put out anything I end up with on the site. One of the questions I'm asking myself about which board is how many COM ports are practical and which board to get for that. A lot of decisions, aren't there? Just another reason to take it slow.

LED or conventional bulbs? The conventional ones eat more power, but are far cheaper. I'll start collecting them right after Xmas. How many strings should I average on a channel?

So many things to do, my, my.

Thanks again.

[P. Short]

Blackbeard,

At this point I don't think that it makes a lot of sense to convert to AVRs. It would amount to a complete re-design (new PCB, new firmware, etc). The fact that you are even asking these questions leads me to think that you would be far better of with one of the existing designs, whatever they may be at the time that you start. The boards will be a lot cheaper and/or easier, and it will take a lot less time to come up with the firmware than if you try to convert to an AVR.

[Blackbeard]

P.Short,

You're absolutely correct - new design, everything. I was speaking before I had found out what was available. I was under the assumption that I would need to etch my own board, burn my own MCUs, and all the hard work from scratch.

Since then, I have found out that PCBs are available, are relatively cheap, that the PICs used are comparatively equal in cost to similar AVRs, and that members will burn them for me. This group of people really has it together!

So unless I can see a benefit or improvement, I'll stick to what's there already.

[Wayne J]

Yep, pretty much everything is available. I will make a suggestion though. I highly recommend that you do purchase a programmer. The PICs sometimes do get corrupted and will need a reflash, rare, but it does happen. You also may want to change firmware for whatever reason. If you are going to use a PIC based controller, it is a very good idea to have one.
As for etching your own stuff, well that seems to be a dying art around here, but some of us still do :) ....
http://www.jamesfamilychristmas.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=36

Welcome to the board!

[Macrosill]

Blackbeard,
As all of your questions have been answered let me just add a Welcome aboard!

[wbuehler]

Welcome

And I agree with Wayne I highly recommend a Pic programmer.

Bill

[Trip]

pic programmer is definitely a must, I am one of the ones that bought one of these $15 jobs. It works fine for me. So if you really are on a budget, you can get one cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microchip-PIC-JDM-Programmer-12F629-No-1_W0QQitemZ130269679440QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defau ltDomain_0?hash=item130269679440&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

[Blackbeard]

Trip,

Thanks for the pointer. These PIC seem to be better and better all the time.

Thanks for all the kindness so far from this list.

[Blackbeard]

WayneJ,

That's quite a website you have there. I ran out of etchant a while back, Radio Shack doesn't seem to stock the kit or single bottle any more. Where do you get your stuff from and what method do you use for tranfer? I'm real impressed with your efforts. How many channels were you using in 2007 (the online videos)?

[Wayne J]

WayneJ,

That's quite a website you have there. I ran out of etchant a while back, Radio Shack doesn't seem to stock the kit or single bottle any more. Where do you get your stuff from and what method do you use for tranfer? I'm real impressed with your efforts. How many channels were you using in 2007 (the online videos)?

Thanks!
I quit fooling with Radio Shack as far as etchant (ferric chloride) goes. They never had it in stock. I was lucky enough to find a PC parts store somewhat locally that carries MG Chemicals products. So I now buy it from them by the gallon jugs. You can get it from Mouser, they carry MG stuff also. So keep that in mind when you make a parts order. I get my copper clad off Ebay.
As for trace transfer, I use toner transfer method with Staples photo paper. A homemade etching tank to etch in too.

The 2007 show was 152 channels. I had 128 home etched 595 channels and three Renard 8 beta boards.