Introducing the TRIKS-C

[TimW]

Apparently, I'm the evil guy in the video enticing you to buy my Triks-C design.

Actually, to buy my stripboard prototype that I foolishly showed off to some other 'Christmas nerds' at the Melbourne mini. From which somehow I and my evil Australian empire am to make my fortune by witholding vital IP that is needed by this community for its very existence.

Well, to avoid any further character assasination (Brian you must have been referring to me its my FACE on the video!) I am sharing. A little earlier than I planned given noone but me has tested anything and I was talking to KC about how it might interface to Vixen, but I'm not going to give the conspiracy theorists any more ammo.

Here is my concept schematic, my protocol schema, my AVR source code (compile with this (http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2725) and some rough FREEBASIC (www.freebasic.net (http://www.freebasic.net)) code. I don't have anything else.

You now have everything you need to tinker away.

I feel like I'm being treated like a criminal. All I was trying to do was to get the job done and make sure we could make christmas. Somehow its better to take another 6 months and design by commitee. Knock yourselves out!

Now I'll sit back and wait for the endless critiques I guess....bring em on.

Please understand that this is pre release stuff. If I change anything its not my fault, or my problem. I'm doing this to protect my reputation, not because I think its smart right now.

So yes, Nothing to Hide. And right now, nothing to add.

Merry Christmas.

Tim

[BuzzKill]

Dude,

You flatter yourself. There is plenty of "evil" to go around on this board. You are hardly the first, and I highly doubt you will be the last. Stop making everything about you. Now that your face is red... read on. :)

But that said, thank you for posting your stuff!

I see both sides of this equation.

Brian sees this as more of a huge Open Source project. Everyone contributes to the core, which in this case is more blinky flashy. Now, where things get muddy is where industrial folks, such as yourself, develop something, and in my opinion, try to make it something that is fairly tested before "release". This is the difference between hardware open source and software open source. If you release a bad peice of software, it crashes, you change the code, rinse, lather, repeat. If you release a bad PCB file, some n00b can potentially fry a lot of expensive parts, or worse, themselves. And certainly nobody wants to start a group buy with a bad board. So your intentions are honorable, but not in the spirit of the community or this board. Another member may have caught the errors sooner, or offered changes to reduce the size, etc, etc. There are a lot of smart people here.

So what has brought us to this? A few people are "hoarding" board files and schematics. This is not the intention of this site. It is that simple. Now, if the current situation is intentional, or an attempt to protect people from permanently curling their hair, or just plain vanity around their design, I don't know. Some of it, or probably most of it, is good intentions that over time have run afoul of Brian's guidelines.

I do know that I have benefited greatly from the circuit designs and goodwill of folks that put their wallets on the line to administer group buys. And to all those folks I say "Thank you".

[Macrosill]

Apparently, I'm the evil guy in the video enticing you to buy my Triks-C design.
Apparently you are wrong! We exchanged PMs earlier today and I informed you that you are not the guy this is about, in fact it is about no one, it is a trend I am seeing.


Actually, to buy my stripboard prototype that I foolishly showed off to some other 'Christmas nerds' at the Melbourne mini. From which somehow I and my evil Australian empire am to make my fortune by witholding vital IP that is needed by this community for its very existence.


Well, to avoid any further character assasination (Brian you must have been referring to me its my FACE on the video!) I am sharing. A little earlier than I planned given noone but me has tested anything and I was talking to KC about how it might interface to Vixen, but I'm not going to give the conspiracy theorists any more ammo.
Once again I told you this is not about you, or any one particular person. As a matter of fact I told you you would be the one to choose whether or not you were someone I was referring to. That choice was whether to release the info or not. I made no threats and gave no demands. I named no one, only wrote about some facts, nothing more.


Here is my concept schematic, my protocol schema, my AVR source code and some rough FASTBASIC (google it) code. I don't have anything else.

You now have everything you need to tinker away.

I feel like I'm being treated like a criminal. All I was trying to do was to get the job done and make sure we could make christmas. Somehow its better to take another 6 months and design by commitee. Knock yourselves out!

Now I'll sit back and wait for the endless critiques I guess....bring em on.
Being treated like a criminal? How is that? I made some statements and demanded nothing other than stated some new rules are forthcoming. Why would you feel like you are being treated any way? I have not demanded anything of you, I have never even had a conversation wiht you other than responding to your PM asking if I was referring to you in my posts, earlier today, to which I stated no, as I wrote above. Maybe you have a guilty conscience or something as I accused you of nothing so why you feel that way only you know.


Please understand that this is pre release stuff. If I change anything its not my fault, or my problem. I'm doing this to protect my reputation, not because I think its smart right now.

So yes, Nothing to Hide. And right now, nothing to add.

Merry Christmas.

Tim

Nothing to add? If you feel that way then maybe this is not the place for you. Again I did not ask, demand or request you to release anything. You chose to do that. You took a design here and made it better. That is great, that is what this place is about. Maybe someone will take your design and make it better. See what you did would not be possible if the information was not made available. So you and everyone else has benefited by the exact thing I am trying to secure for the future. So where is the issue here?

[wjohn]

Geez, this will be interesting.

NOt sure whay this got started, Last week I was in my death bed with the flu and chest infection, and this week I am on holidays at the coast. My Wife specificially asked me to leave my laptop at home.

Schematics, All mine are posted. Have a look in the wikis, I have posted very detailed construction details to any of my designs. PCB files, I post the PDFs, more than enough if you are insterested in seeing the cooper. All my designs are in Protel, not really usable by 99.5% of the DIYC community.

If you need to speak to me, post me a PM or email, dont make a public statement, unless you need a soapbox.

KC's software, you cant and wont see the source code. Have a problem? write your own. Everything else is generally a free for all. Want to deisgn something, great pls do, Want to build something, please do. Share what you feel comfortable with.

[Macrosill]

I wonder why all of a sudden people are starting to defend themselves. Why is it that I post about a trend I am seeing, name no one, and people start stating what they have done. Maybe people do not fully read my posts or only selectively recall what they read or something else, I don't know. This is not about any 1 person, it is a trend I am seeing. I see it getting out of control in the future. I have accused no one of anything so why do people feel they need to defend themselves?

[wjohn]

MAybe because it is posted, and not conducted as private email.

[Wayne J]

How can something not directed to 1 person be handled via email?

[rlilly]

That would be because you are the boss..... you own this site.....you make the rules we have to follow ...... If folks want something different than the rules allow, then they'll then have to find the ways to fill their needs. As it's been said. There are plenty of smart folks here.

This is a great site. There's alot of sharing here. However, whatever the message you meant to pass failed to reach me.

Tim! Excellent work! Please see it through!

wJohn! Thanks for making so many boards available for us!

[Macrosill]

Well lets start with the 1st message. If you design something here be open with it and share it with us, that's what we have done in the past, do in the present and will do in the future.

When that message reaches you let me know and we can go from there.

[holtm]

Tim, If it makes you feel better, I've been working on a serial driver for LED Tricks too. We exchanged posts a few months ago about it. Mine doesn't work and may not for a while (lack of time). In theory it will, in reality it doesn't. I know the work that went into it. I think being excited enough about your work to post a video and show the potential of your design before it was even on a board is gutsy. I understand not wanting to design by committee, it takes more time and time the community doesn't have for this year. Thanks for posting the files. Congratulations on the design and thanks for your contribution to the community.

[TimW]

Well lets start with the 1st message. If you design something here be open with it and share it with us, that's what we have done in the past, do in the present and will do in the future.

When that message reaches you let me know and we can go from there.

Brian

I would have thought my position on your plans is clear. I don't agree with them, but for my part I comply. See post 1.

I have shared. Before the rules changed. To demonstrate I am not what you are inferring in the group buys post (particularly with regard to any insinuation that I or anyone associated with TRIKS-C is in this for money) . See post 1 of this thread.

Your move. Name the video you were referring to as an example of this trend.

(Or we could all just settle down and get back to doing fun stuff.)

Its your site. Its my reputation. Stop beating me up for having a go and trying to contribute something around here. I don't understand your frustration. I do perceive you are questioning the motives behind the development of TRIKS-C and others and concluding that they are commercial. Hopefully my actions have put everyone's mind at rest on TRIKS-C. I don't speak for anyone else. They can speak for themselves.

I've posted the files. I'm aligned with the dream. Can we move on please.

All this flattery of myself is going to my head :)

Tim

[rlilly]

Tim, If it makes you feel better, I've been working on a serial driver for LED Tricks too. We exchanged posts a few months ago about it. Mine doesn't work and may not for a while (lack of time). In theory it will, in reality it doesn't. I know the work that went into it. I think being excited enough about your work to post a video and show the potential of your design before it was even on a board is gutsy. I understand not wanting to design by committee, it takes more time and time the community doesn't have for this year. Thanks for posting the files. Congratulations on the design and thanks for your contribution to the community.

Hear here!!

[joneslights]

Ok, I'm going to get a fire hose!


I actually have a question about the Triks-C, does this still require being connected to Vixen to run? I'm hoping use Vixen to program it, then it runs by itself unconnected.

Greg

[TimW]

Version 1 will need a computer connection (or at least connection to something that will tell it what to turn on).

However, one thing that is built into the intial code is the ability for a very limited stand alone function. The chip has room to store up to 8 frames of data that can be scrolled through in order at a set rate. Initially the first couple of frames have been set up as a test pattern - so you can test and debug the TRIKS-C and your Ledtriks panel in stand alone mode. Right now to use those 8 frames you'd need to program the frames (almost) by hand. If you did that you could use a cyclic 8 panel message that would work in stand alone mode (like say a 'tune to') sign. No computer required.

We're still attempting to get version 1 out in a hurry so at least people can play with it for this year if they want. Its still a prototype. There will probably be issues to overcome. That's the challenge of DIY. And the fun.

[joneslights]

Tim,

Excellent! I'm looking for a way to run Triks on LOR software.

Sounds like a good plan. Keep us all in the loop!

Greg

[vairmoose]

Tim

I had resigned myself to never considering LEDTriks because of the dependence on a good parallel port. After seeing what you have accomplished, I've reconsidered that original decision and am now am looking forward to having LEDTRIK in my future.

Now the dummy question, From the information already posted, it appears that the size of the onboard memory is limiting what can be stored. Is there a particular reason that one of the larger chips in the ATTiny family such as the ATtiny861 could not be used to overcome the memory block limitation?

No flames please, just pondering what could be.

Larry

(BTW: In case you've not figured it out, my DIY is to ensure that I satisfy my sense of accomplishment is creating something that my family will like, hopefully without magic smoke or sparky-flashy, and at a cost that doesn't abuse my sense of value. To do this DIY, I depend on the brains in the community that understand electronics,bits and bytes to create the firmware to move the data and to design the hardware to properly channel the electrons. As others have stated, there are a multitude of levels when you DIY.)

[TimW]

Yes - one way to solve this would be to use a bigger microcontroller. But thats not the only way it might go. There are solutions that could use a similar sized chip with a spi interface to an external eprom or SD card or whatever.

One thing to consider is that we usually use Ledtriks in combinations of panels. So the way its currently proposed you use a smaller micro per panel (basically to take care of all the fast signals required to keep the leds on) and then behind these (maybe in the middle) could be linked a bigger chip (with the memory etc). That way you don't need a bigger chip on every panel and have to worry about how to sync them all up. The secondary 'controller' would take care of that somehow.

So the smaller capacity chip right now enables us to get it going simply for those who just want serial control and less PC load. But it also leaves the door open for a lot of 'addons' or replacements down the track, some of which might just be bigger micros doing the job that the PC will do now.

That's the idea, anyway.

[vairmoose]

Thanks Tim... That explains it very nicly....

I'll shut up now and crawl back into my hole....

Larry

[TimW]

I'll shut up now and crawl back into my hole....

Larry

Larry

I'm crawling back into mine too... much safer in there :) !

liked your BTW, BTW

Tim

[joneslights]

(BTW: In case you've not figured it out, my DIY is to ensure that I satisfy my sense of accomplishment is creating something that my family will like, hopefully without magic smoke or sparky-flashy, and at a cost that doesn't abuse my sense of value. To do this DIY, I depend on the brains in the community that understand electronics,bits and bytes to create the firmware to move the data and to design the hardware to properly channel the electrons. As others have stated, there are a multitude of levels when you DIY.)

Fits me to a tee!

[joneslights]

I have one of those scrolling LED signs, that was inop, so I took it apart to find the problem (ended up being a disconnected power cable that came loose). While I had it open I took a look at it's CMOS chip, a AT89S52.


Greg

[daviddth]

Wow a few days not reading the forum and this happened. I know there were some comments in the chat regarding the triks-c, but since Tim has been the only person willing to invest time and money to get a serial interface that takes some load off the PC, then I'll back him in this instance.

There were a group of us willing to test this design before releasing it to the masses. It's been done heaps of times in the past - wait till the design is proven before letting the masses at it. Sure there will be people out there who will see flaws in the design, but it's less than 2 months till lights on and if we get the "experts" tweaking now it might be ready for next year if we are lucky

The Triks-c was, in my opinion, a cheap & easy interface for now - in the future something better may be incorporated onto the ledtriks board making it a single board design, but thats for later

[piesrule58]

Larry

(BTW: In case you've not figured it out, my DIY is to ensure that I satisfy my sense of accomplishment is creating something that my family will like, hopefully without magic smoke or sparky-flashy, and at a cost that doesn't abuse my sense of value. To do this DIY, I depend on the brains in the community that understand electronics,bits and bytes to create the firmware to move the data and to design the hardware to properly channel the electrons. As others have stated, there are a multitude of levels when you DIY.)



Big DITTO for me too.

[TimW]

Sorry guys, error in my first post (and kinda ironic...)

dont google fastbasic... try FREEbasic
www.freebasic.net (http://www.freebasic.net)

and for the Atmel compiler:

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2725 (http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2725)


I'll update the post.

[g2ktcf]

OMG...

Guys, I took a few days off and traveled back to the US...I get in my office and see this thread. I am dishearted at the least:(. I love the idea of Triks-C. I can't wait to make one.

Tim,

This is kick butt. If in any way I can help out, please let me know. I have not bought any of the parts but I have extra copper clad ready to go and I will buy the parts asap. I really appreciate the efforts you are making here.

All,

I understand some of the comments about the open source world. I for one, want to etch all my boards. I could not locate a file for the SSRs so I had to make my own files. I would gladly contribute to those who do the layout work. I, in fact, had already PM'd KC to ask if he had donations setup last month (he does not btw). I am a newbie here and I LOVE the information that is available.

I am concerned that the flames in this thread can run people off and I really do not want to see that happen.

Just my 2 cents...

Chris

[wjohn]

FYI,

The TRICKS-C BETA PC Boards arrived this week while I was away, I will be mailing them ASAP. The uP may follow a day to two later as the parts were delivered to Peter (scorpia) on my behalf. I am only home tonite and back on the road again tomorrow for 10 days.

Peter has done a very able job helping out while I was away during this week, THANKS PETER. Peter has gone thru 20$ in gas checking my mail and UPS/DHL deliveries to ensure we got the boards out ASAP.


Just wanted to make sure those who are testing the design get the PCB ASAP, once it is working and reports are back in, I'll post the PDF of the PCB for those interested, and start a formal COOP for the VER 1.0 board (givein that no changes are required), or a VER1.1 if we need to make any minor adjustments.

[coolspot]

well who ever it is is a idiot its just showing you what it does how does that make you buy it... its for anyone who wants lower pc usage

[coolspot]

FYI,

The TRICKS-C BETA PC Boards arrived this week while I was away, I will be mailing them ASAP. The uP may follow a day to two later as the parts were delivered to Peter (scorpia) on my behalf. I am only home tonite and back on the road again tomorrow for 10 days.

Peter has done a very able job helping out while I was away during this week, THANKS PETER. Peter has gone thru 20$ in gas checking my mail and UPS/DHL deliveries to ensure we got the boards out ASAP.


Just wanted to make sure those who are testing the design get the PCB ASAP, once it is working and reports are back in, I'll post the PDF of the PCB for those interested, and start a formal COOP for the VER 1.0 board (givein that no changes are required), or a VER1.1 if we need to make any minor adjustments.

cant wait for the ver 1.0 boards :D are we going to do a group buy on parts aswell from mouser for this lot if it all goes ahead

[daviddth]

The Mouser total per board (not including the board itself which would be about $7 at a guess) is a little under US$10 for parts. The Futurlec cost, with the exception of ONE part is AU$10.50 and that includes a few extras on items like headers, resistors etc.

I bought enough from Futurlec for 4 boards (I like spares) for under $30 delivered. I just need to beg for 2 or 3 485 chips off John and I'll be set lol

You might also be better waiting until you get all the bits for your Ledtriks there and working before you attempt a triks-c too Coolspot :)

[coolspot]

The Mouser total per board (not including the board itself which would be about $7 at a guess) is a little under US$10 for parts. The Futurlec cost, with the exception of ONE part is AU$10.50 and that includes a few extras on items like headers, resistors etc.

I bought enough from Futurlec for 4 boards (I like spares) for under $30 delivered. I just need to beg for 2 or 3 485 chips off John and I'll be set lol

You might also be better waiting until you get all the bits for your Ledtriks there and working before you attempt a triks-c too Coolspot :)

meh im getting a set of ledtriks pcb i dont see what will be hard getting that working

[daviddth]

Dont forget you need the 3 ledtriks boards to hold the 768 LED's, plus the ledtriks control PCB (and parts) and then you also need the triks C. Thats probably about 2000 solder joints per ledtriks... It's great soldering practice :)

[coolspot]

Dont forget you need the 3 ledtriks boards to hold the 768 LED's, plus the ledtriks control PCB (and parts) and then you also need the triks C. Thats probably about 2000 solder joints per ledtriks... It's great soldering practice :)

ive almost built ledtriks just need the ics but im not sure where i can get them can you get them from king electronics

[Ronp]

Now that the ledtriks board will be running from the trik-c The MBI5027-GN-5027 should work on everyones pc. the reason we went to the allegro is because of the isues with the parellel ports.

yes they are at king electronics

http://www.kingelectronics.com/index.asp?action=product&id=166

[joneslights]

Now that the ledtriks board will be running from the trik-c The MBI5027-GN-5027 should work on everyones pc. the reason we went to the allegro is because of the isues with the parellel ports.

yes they are at king electronics

http://www.kingelectronics.com/index.asp?action=product&id=166

Ahh... BTW I do not live too far from King Electronics so if anyone needs a favor.......

[Michael Sullivan]

I would love some help as for shipping to Australia $30.00 wow.

Cheers
Michael

[wjohn]

i am trying to order some, and have them shipped to my hotel before I go home to Aus.

[coolspot]

Now that the ledtriks board will be running from the trik-c The MBI5027-GN-5027 should work on everyones pc. the reason we went to the allegro is because of the isues with the parellel ports.

yes they are at king electronics

http://www.kingelectronics.com/index.asp?action=product&id=166

what are the codes on king electronics hey joneslights i may be interested in doing what i did last time

[wjohn]

this is the Sales Mngr at Kings

Thank you for your business!
Reagan Dunphy
National Sales Coordinator
Cell: (317) 450-7093
Direct Line: (317) 639-4712
Ofc: 866-590-KING
Fax: (317) 639-4711
www.kingelectronics.com
King Electronics Dist.
1711 Southeastern Ave
Indianapolis, IN 46201

I have worked with Reagan over the last two years to get MBIs, he has been very helpful and is sending another 30 MBIs to me at the hotel that I'll be bringing back to the AUST members who were chasing MBI (Mike, TP, Cool etc)

[toodle_pipsky]

Aren't you a nice person! Thank you so much!

[wjohn]

you havnt seen the bill yet, I was going to get a Biz class upgrade and put 1/3 of the United Airlines cost on to the MBI bottom line ;-) Thanks, I'll enjoy a lot of better movies.

[toodle_pipsky]

Wicked, wicked boy ;)

[joneslights]

you havnt seen the bill yet, I was going to get a Biz class upgrade and put 1/3 of the United Airlines cost on to the MBI bottom line ;-) Thanks, I'll enjoy a lot of better movies.


That should make it about $30 per MBI right ;)

[artzy]

you havnt seen the bill yet, I was going to get a Biz class upgrade and put 1/3 of the United Airlines cost on to the MBI bottom line ;-) Thanks, I'll enjoy a lot of better movies.

Does that mean that when you get over Hawaii you move back to cattle class???..lol

[daviddth]

Does that mean that when you get over Hawaii you move back to cattle class???..lol

Nah, two classes lower than that - a Bunji cord and a small space on the left wing is all his :)

[wjohn]

i am thinking there is not a lot of love, for all the work/effort i expend to help my peers. you think that they would be happy to kick in some $$ to ensure my comfort, and rest on the RTA trip.

for TP, I thought that 1.06 per chip and 800$ shipping was fair for 10 MBIs.

[TimW]

I reckon $800AUD is very reasonable... thats not a lot of money any more (anyone seen an exchange rate lately?!)


I'm with Tp on her observation though.... I think it should be your new sig....



Wicked, wicked boy ;)

[wjohn]

so that 200AUD i converted to USD on monday is now worth about 20% extra by Thursday?

gotta love a global stk meltdown

[toodle_pipsky]

These MBIs better be pure freakin' gold!

I reckon most (especially the aussie boys) could use that as their sig Tim ;)

[artzy]

so that 200AUD i converted to USD on monday is now worth about 20% extra by Thursday?

gotta love a global stk meltdown

At current rates if you stay there for another three or four weeks you will become a gazillionaire..lol..then you can just by your own jet to come back on

[wjohn]

great, I'll start shorting AUD against the Greenback, and then fly home 1st class.


John.
Wicked, wicked boy

[Penfold]

A quick question. Will the ATTINY2313 be programable with the programmers used in the forum currently or will we have to buy another programmer. The thing that is throwing me off is the use of the word "EPROM". Sorry, I am not up to par with how these programmers will fair agains the ATTINY2313.

[TimW]

The ATTINY2313 is like a PIC. But its not a PIC. Its made by a different company. It is programmed with a different 'language'. So you program it like a PIC. But you will need a different programmer (an ATMEL programmer) if you want to program it.

Tim

[wjohn]

there are a range of programmers for ATMELs. I designed the board with the standard 6 PIN header for a programmer. You can also build a very simple parallel port interface programmer as well.

Many of the members on DIYC have offered to flash ICs for other members, and for the BETA testers I included a Flashed uP so that knew they had a good designed PCBs and a working uP.

[dmcole]

Lady Ada is supplier of DIY AVR stuff; she provides two different AVR programmers, both of which can be found here:

http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=16

I bought the USBTiny kit but if you have a serial port on your PC, the serial port version should be fine.

I built up the USBTiny kit in just a few minutes. Really easy.

\dmc

[coolspot]

when will the boards be ordered hopefully before december john otherwise its a wait for next year

[daviddth]

I believe John was happy enough with the 2 Beta orders, so he should get some ordered by next month.

[wjohn]

when will the boards be ordered hopefully before december john otherwise its a wait for next year

Yours are post December delivery, the rest will be in a few weeks, COOP will open this week.

John.

[daviddth]

Oh excellent news John. Everyone, you wont be disappointed with this triks-c and the ledtriks - it's just so easy to use. Dont forget - start creating and sharing your animations - PLEASE :)