Renard 64 channel COOP interest??

[Mrplow123]

Someone mentioned that I should recap what this board is all about. I think it would be easiest if everyone who wants to know refer to this thread, http://picdimmer.17.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=97 I don't really want to retype all of that. If anyone has any specific questions about this board, ask away.

As for peicing. As it stands now, if we order the boards as is without making any changes the prices are as folows.

With a 4 day turn time...
50 boards = $15.73 ea.
150 boards = $10.26 ea.
250 boards = $9.16 ea.

If I streatch it out to a 4 week turn time..
50 boards = $9.33 ea.
150 boards = $6.06 ea.
250 boards = $5.41 ea.

I don't know if people really want to wait more then a month to get their boards or not.

Now if we need to make any changes to it, there will be retooling fees involved, so that will drive the price up a bit.

I just want a preliminary idea of how many people are actually interested in the 64 channel Renard board? And to just get an idea of what the initial COOP order would be like for pricing. I added the poll. but this thread is also open to comments, questions, and discussion.

David

[tconley]

I liked the idea of that 128 channel controller

[grages]

It's hard to vote in a poll when I don't have enough information. For example what would it cost for the board if 20, 50 or 100 were purchased. Is this the board that was almost free because of a special deal? (not that there is another deal)

Would there be a parts coop or board only? You probably should recap just what the board is... onboard ssr's or not etc.

I liked the concept of FireGods Pic Dimmer. But I need to weigh all options.

[stempile]

I voted yes as I will get at least 1 or 4 boards. I am looking out for my neighbor as well so you might see me in a couple different co-op orders for different designs. But I will commit to at least 1 time is not an issue right now. If it goes for the 4 week turn around I might pick up more.

Thanks

[grages]

David,

Thanks so much for the Info. I will vote that I am in, and want 1 to 5. Hopefully we can get this going in a reasonable time so we can use the 4 week timeframe.

Of course what I want is not the main driving factor, but I will tell you what I'm thinking. Maybe it will help someone else also.

Budget for the Boards ~$25 not including shipping
1 at the 4 day 50 board price
2 at the 4 day 150 or 250 board price
2 at the 4 week 50 board price
4 at the 4 week 150 board price
5 at the 4 week 250 board price ( I am breaking my rule here a little bit)

Do you have an idea what the parts for one board cost?

[Mrplow123]

Do you have an idea what the parts for one board cost?

When I purchased my parts to build my boards, without a coop. It worked out to roughly $50.00 per board from mouser. That was with all 64 leds also. So with a large enough coop order, we could probably get down around the $40.00 per board range or even cheaper.

[grages]

Thats great David. I had no idea how much I was getting into, and I probably still don't.

Shawn

[JeffPen01]

I am in 100%.
Cost...who cares
Timeframe... I got 5 months until I start putting up lights.

I am looking for a minimum of 3 boards.

Jeff

[RavingLunatic]

Definitely in! Probably 4 to 6 boards depending on how the cost works out.

My 2 cents:
If waiting for the 4 week turn time cuts the cost of the boards almost in half, then I would believe more people would get multiple boards (spares) at the cheaper price.

As long as a potential coop happens no later than september then I don't think too many people would have a problem waiting if it saves them money that they will need to populate the boards.

[Rod_R]

I am very intrested in multiple boards. What is the ETA on placing the order. I will not be using them this year but I want to get in on the group buy.

[jderba]

I'd be in for 2 boards if/when a coop occurs

[dgreen]

I am in for three.
Sounds great.

[BuckeyenNJ]

I am interested in 1 please
Is someone going to be doing the components also?

Tom

[Mudsculpter]

I would be interested in 4 boards if we got up to the "250 with 4 week processing time" range. With all the investment so far in what I have now, about $50 for the boards is all I can muster.

[grages]

I would be interested in 4 boards if we got up to the "250 with 4 week processing time" range. With all the investment so far in what I have now, about $50 for the boards is all I can muster.

Thats only about $22 in boards not including shipping if we get to the 250/4.

[Mudsculpter]

I would be interested in 4 boards if we got up to the "250 with 4 week processing time" range. With all the investment so far in what I have now, about $50 for the boards is all I can muster.

Thats only about $22 in boards not including shipping if we get to the 250/4.

So it is,... even better,... more cash to populate them .....

[grages]

So it is,... even better,... more cash to populate them .....

:D :D :D

[Matt]

I'd be in for 2-4.

-Matt

[Josh]

anyone have a price range for population?

[grages]

anyone have a price range for population?

MrPlow123 wrote this on page 1 of the thread.


When I purchased my parts to build my boards, without a coop. It worked out to roughly $50.00 per board from mouser. That was with all 64 leds also. So with a large enough coop order, we could probably get down around the $40.00 per board range or even cheaper.

[truma]

I'd be in for 2 or 3 depending on final $$$

[spike]

Im in for about 4 boards.

[Mrplow123]

I am not seeing as much interest in this coop as I was hoping for. Can those who are not sure, please tell me/us, what has you not sure about this board? What are your thoughts/concerns on this board design. The board design has been proven to work, is everyone waiting for more documented proof?

I have not see any other design yet, that seems more practical, compact or cost effective yet. The only other tested system so far is Firegods system, witch has it's place. His system works off of the placing 32 channel controlers all over your yard. This system can work that way also, but with 64 channels in each location. But these 2 system have their obvious differences, pros and cons. I will leave that debate up to the end user.

So what I am getting at is this. I have enough boards left from my original beta order to fulfill all of my needs for this year and years to come. If we can't even hit a 50 board order, there can't be a COOP order. And even at 50 boards, I don't think most are going to want to pay $15.00 per baord, even though that is still a low price. I am not asking people right now to commit to buying anything. I just need to know if more then 20 people are interested in getting in on this coop. Even at 20 people with 3 boards each, we will still have to pay a heavy price.

I know final price will determine if you will buy one or more boards. But we will never get to that low final price, if everyone waits for everyone else to jump in.

These are just my thoughts on this, don't be offended by any of this. I just want to get this coop going by July, and right now, it doesn't look like it will happen.

Let me know what you all think.

[RandyA]

ok, I will go with 4, just hope it is around payday!! :wink:

[Sean Bowf]

David,

I think there would have been a lot more interest around February...and I think there will be a lot more interest around September. I just think a lot of folks are doing "summer stuff" right now.

I have been doing "summer stuff", and have not really been following the progress of Renard...but am still interested.

I thought after Xmas last year, that a "Standard" would be settled on. Every time I come back to the message board to check in, it seems like the design is headed in 12 different directions. I think this might put some doubt in folks' minds.

Sean

[ErnieHorning]

“Do It Yourself” is still more like “Do It My Way”, which is what it should be. Otherwise we would just copy LOR and be like everyone else. :?

Good to hear from you again Sean. Maybe if you take the summers off, I’ll be able to keep up with your post numbers. :D

[Sean Bowf]

LOL, I don't think you will have any problem there Earnie. Things seem to be evolving pretty fast...so I don't think I will have a lot of input into anything. More like trying to catch up.

Sean

[Mrplow123]

First off, nice to see you posting Sean. I'm sure we will see alot more posts from you.

I aggree on the timing. Most people are not thinking about Christmas in June. And those who are, probably are planning hugh displays such as my self. And those who are not planning now, probably think they have tons of time left. 12 months is not enough. I started planning this years display, before Christmas last year. I wanted to try to get an early COOP going so those who want to run this board don't have to wait untill Novenber to put it together. I know I wont be waiting untill the last minute to put it all together this year. I can try to organize a COOP in September or October and see if there is more interest. But I might not have time to run it then. I will be very busy from late September till Thanksgiving with my own display setup. I was out taking pics of the yard tonight and putting together a panorama of the yard. I will start my sequencing this week. It is going to take hundreds of hours to sequence 192 dimming channels. I sure don't want to be sequencing songs the first week of December again.

I guess I will wait another month and see what kind of interest pops up then.

[LRNeener]

What is the new channel count and timming for this board? Last i knew it was 128 or 192 with the 1/20 of a second timing, but that was a few months ago. So what is the new channel count and timming for this board?

[grages]

What is the new channel count and timming for this board? Last i knew it was 128 or 192 with the 1/20 of a second timing, but that was a few months ago. So what is the new channel count and timming for this board?

I don't know about the timing but the thread title states "Renard 64 channels".

[Macrosill]

Grages,
LRNeener was referring to the total channel capabilities of the pic firmware with regards to the timing. There is limit as to how much data can be transmitted at a particular speed. So you need to find a sweet spot so to speak and weigh in on the channel counts vs timing speed.

I am sure the knowledgeable crew on Renard will chime in. I do not recall the exact numbers so I will refrain from posting them.

[P. Short]

At 57600 baud (requires oscillator) and 50 ms update interval, the number of channels is 144 (288 if the 'bad' codes are avoided).

But in the interests of keeping the threads from wandering all over the place, this isn't really the place for this discussion.

--

Phil

[grages]

Grages,
LRNeener was referring to the total channel capabilities of the pic firmware with regards to the timing. There is limit as to how much data can be transmitted at a particular speed. So you need to find a sweet spot so to speak and weigh in on the channel counts vs timing speed.

I am sure the knowledgeable crew on Renard will chime in. I do not recall the exact numbers so I will refrain from posting them.

Thanks for setting me straight Brian. I wasn't trying to be a smart alec. I still have a lot to learn, and I need to know these things also since I have said I will order some of these when the coop occurs.

Shawn

[Rod_R]

What is going on with this COOP? I am very intrested in getting some of these boards, but there has not been a post or an update in a long time. Am I looking in the wrong place? I even sent a PM to Mrplow123 about the status and still have not gotten a reply. Is this COOP dead?

[P. Short]

I've seen him logged in every once in a while. Right now everybody is waiting, I think, until things pick up a little bit later in the year.

--

Phil

[wjohn]

Mr Plow must be busy in the fields, plowing.

[Mrplow123]

Sorry I have not had time to respond to people about this coop. I have been so busy with work, and planning my own display for this year. As of right now, I am not planning a COOP for this board. If I get enough interest from people I will be very happy to place an order. When I posted about this almost 2 months ago, I did not get a large enough group of people who wanted in on a COOP. So for now, it is on hold. I have enough boards from the beta run to fill my needs. So maybe I will check again in another month to see if more people are interested. With the creation of the 595 dimming interface board, maybe the 64 renard board is a lost cause. Atleast some people might see it that way. I still feel for the money it costs to build one of these boards, it is still better then trying to bandaid the 595 into dimming, no offense Phil. Personally I like to keep everything as clean and simple as possible. And adding extra boards to make something do extra stuff, just sounds like more things to fail and go wrong. But that is just my opinion.

So keep watching, and waiting. I will put out another request in a month or so.

[P. Short]

No offense taken. This is more about fun than about ego. Besides, I have enough stake in both boards to not be upset if one or the other doesn't take off, or is viewed as an unsavory hack.

There are a few minor things that might be worth changing before a coop, listed over at the wiki. The biggest ones, in my mind, are the size of the holes for the diode D1, and the with of the trace from J4 to D1. These aren't totally urgent, since I don't favor bringing unfiltered power into this board anyway (since there isn't room for an adequately large cap).

--

[Mrplow123]

As you noticed, I have been popping in to the forum and keeping up with everything. I noticed you mention these changes awhile ago, and I plan to incorporate them before the COOP order. I don't see a need to run any proto boards, as I don't see these changes creating any problems. So I will make sure they get changed for the COOP board. Also I was going to talk to you about a way to move the output RJ's appart from each other a bit. With out making the board any bigger. Any idea? I didn't have any problems with assembling my boards. It was a tight fit, but it fit. Some people mentioned they had problems with the jacks being too close together.

[P. Short]

I don't always remember if, when, or where I mentioned things, so I hope that you aren't bothered if I do it more than once.

You are right about that the connector clearance, I forgot it. I haven't looked into how to change it, but I do worry when moving a lot of parts around.

--

Phil

[Mrplow123]

I don't always remember if, when, or where I mentioned things, so I hope that you aren't bothered if I do it more than once.

--

Phil

I am not bathered at all, I was stating that I have been around and used you as a witness.


You are right about that the connector clearance, I forgot it. I haven't looked into how to change it, but I do worry when moving a lot of parts around.

--

Phil

I feel the same way. That is alot of items to move around. I worry that we coul introduce a problem into the board. As I said, I didn't have any issue assembling mine. Did you have any problems with the jacks?

[P. Short]

Yes, the connectors are just a little bit too large (mouser p/n 571-5556416-1). However, there are some parts in the catalog that are just a little bit smaller (mouser 538-95003-2881), I'm going to order a few to check them out.

--

Phil

[P. Short]

Aargh..turns out I had the other parts in another project box. The 95003-2881 parts fit just fine on the Renard64 board, they are what I measured when I was laying it out the first time.

--

Phil

[Mrplow123]

That is good news. So we don't need to worry about changing the RJ placement then? We still need to make the other 2 changes to the traces and hole size. I can do it, if you tell me what size to make them, or you can make them. Either way is fine with me.

[bonuts]

I would be interested in a coop on this board!

At this point I'm interested in any coop on any board. I'm not ruling anything out. But it seems for the coops to be succesful you need a bunch of factors to fall into place... 1) enough interest 2) dimming 3) right price point 4) design that works with a lot of people's needs 5) solid Bill of Materials and the parts are available from Mouser 6) tested by enough people that newbies feel confident it works and comfortable spending the money.

[wingrunr]

Count me in for 1 board.

[P. Short]

David,

The trace width should be .025" (or greater), and the hole size for the diode D1 should be either .035 or .040" . As for making the changes, I don't think that I have the latest layout, but will be glad to make the changes if you email it to me.

--

Phil

[JerryWS98]

I'm really new here, but I have been checking out the Renard thanks to Ernie Horning. I'd be in for 2 boards, at least. Ernie sold me on them while I was asking over at Constantly Christmas. I know it has been back and forth about if there will be a Coop for this board, but what are the chances looking like now?

[Matt]

I'm interested! The sooner we can get a coop, the better. Maybe we should do a re-tally of interest?

-Matt

[wingrunr]

Any ideas if/when this is happening?

[bonuts]

I am definitely in whenever this happens. Thanks in advance to whomever decides to run it.

[Netbug105]

I'd be in for at least 1 maybe 2. Are parts included in the price?

-Stuart

[wjohn]

hi,

No parts (not going there), the COOP will be just for the board.

They may be some PICs available, depend on what i can organsie, or we have had a number of people offer to program PICs for forum members.

As for timing, I'll be on Biz travel to North Carolina next week, and will chip away at getting thing organised.


John.

[P. Short]

OK, I'm updating the PCB now. Is anyone aware of any changes that should be made, other than the ones listed in the wiki (and increasing the lead spacing of D1 and R6 to .400")?

--

Phil

PS. I'm considering exchanging the solder and component side copper, so that the ground plane is on the component side. This should make soldering a little bit easier.

--

Phil

[Mrplow123]

OK, I'm updating the PCB now. Is anyone aware of any changes that should be made, other than the ones listed in the wiki (and increasing the lead spacing of D1 and R6 to .400")?

--

Phil

PS. I'm considering exchanging the solder and component side copper, so that the ground plane is on the component side. This should make soldering a little bit easier.

--

Phil

As far as I could tell, those are the only changes that need to be made. As for swapping the copper, I am not sure it is needed. I am a bit more experienced at soldering then the average beginner, but it was pretty easy. I did not have a single problem, not even one set of pins bridged by accident. The solder mask really did it's job. So if it is going to take you long to swap it, it might not be worth it. Plus, with that many traces and connection points, you could potentially create a short or bad connection. And since we will probably send this revision right out for the COOP, it would be too late to identify the problem.

Just my .01 cent.

[ErnieHorning]

This should make soldering a little bit easier.
From a noise standpoint, this would help but I don’t think it would be an issue here, even in the presence of a lot of noise. From a solderability standpoint, this would make no difference since you’re using thermal relief connections on the ground plane.

[P. Short]

As far as I can tell it is a simple matter of re-labelling the gerber files, since there isn't any text on either copper layer. The concern that I had was that someone with less soldering experience might have more of a problem with bridging, but the mask should help with that potential problem.

So, I'll wait another day or so for more responses, and then send the gerbers to John.

--

Phil

[ErnieHorning]

Just make sure you flip the mirroring. I worked at another company years ago where someone attempted to do this and all of the IC’s ended up backwards. It was an expedite so we through away $3000 in just two days.

[wirekat]

I'm in for 4 boards

[grages]

hi,

No parts (not going there), the COOP will be just for the board.

They may be some PICs available, depend on what i can organsie, or we have had a number of people offer to program PICs for forum members.

As for timing, I'll be on Biz travel to North Carolina next week, and will chip away at getting thing organised.


John.

John,

Does this mean you are going to run the Coop? If not I would probably be willing to do it as long as I have advice from the old guard. Are we going by the old original pricing or is there new pricing.

Also can we decide which thread is going to be the active thread for this coop, I had started following the "Time to Gauge" thread. Maybe get the other locked out.

Shawn

[wjohn]

guys

just on a airport stopover, so dont have a lot of time.

Being a glutton for punishment, I will be kicking of this COOP in the next 24 hours. Phil has kindly modified the PCB files with the changes recommended during the BETA testing and I have a copy of them on my laptop.

I will be starting a new Post in the next day, and will list the expected prices and the names I can find from the couple of related REN64 posts.

As there seems to be a couple of people prepared to do PIC programming, i wont be offering that service. This will make posting the PCBs a little easy.

I'll package the PCBs in the bubble wrap padded envelopes I have been using with my other COOPs, and will kick things off this week.

From memory, there are 23 committed starters. Once I post the new topic for the COOP, could i ask the early starters to make contact with me and drop the payment via paypal. all things being equal, i expect to start sending boards out with 2 weeks to thouse who have paid. If you come in late, you may still be able to get a board or 2, but they will be a slight price difference as I have had to cover the cost of the boards to sit on the shelf.

This should get dimming of and running for the year.

Only 100+ days to Xmas!!!

(This will be a PCB only COOP, no PICs or parts ;-)


John

[bonuts]

Thanks for doing this John!

[greenmeanie]

Is 144 the max channels you can use when Daisey chained?

[ErnieHorning]

It depends on the minimm refreash rate that you want and the baud rate that the controllers are running at.

Reference the Wiki under number of channels. http://christmasinshirley.com/wiki/index.php?title=Renard

When you hit the limit, just add another serial port.

[greenmeanie]

Thanks Ernie