PIC Coop

[wingrunr]

Is there an interest in putting together a coop for the PIC16F688-I/P PICs required for the Renard boards? I would be willing to run it. As usual, no profit for me, you've just gotta pay whatever per PIC as well as shipping to you. I will not be ordering them from Mouser. It is cheaper to get them directly from Microchip. If we get more than 100 we can get each PIC for $1.40. Otherwise it'll be about $1.44 a PIC. Post if you want some. I want to order these as soon as we figure out if/when the Renard board coops will go through.

Please post with exact numbers. I'll update this first post with people as I get orders.

I can also program these PICs. However, it will greatly slow the process of getting them out to people. If you'd like yours programmed, please specify that you would as well as which firmware for whatever Renard you are using. If you don't give me a firmware, I won't program the PICs.

Edit: Apparently it is only cost effective to participate in this coop if you need these PICs programmed. If you have a programmer, you might as well just buy them from Mouser.

PICs so far: 58

Orders:
wingrunr -> 16 -> PWM
JerryWS98 -> 16 -> PWM
grages -> 16 -> PWM
Doug-in-the-woods -> 10 -> non-PWM


Payment: Paypal is strongly encouraged. No money orders. Personal checks are fine but I'd rather you used Paypal. Please no checks from outside the US. I'd rather not deal with exchange rates for those. The paypal account is wingedfeet800@sbcglobal.net. I will let you know the final amount once I place the order. Thanks!

[ErnieHorning]

This doesn’t help to get the quantity up, but if you register with Microchip, you can get 3 free samples and Microchip pays the shipping. The website says a maximum of 4, but it will only allow you to select 3.

Note: If you can make your own adaptor boards, you can also get 3 each of the other (3) case styles. I got 12 chips coming, free of charge. :D

Edit: Though the website say’s to allow 2 weeks, I just got a conformation they will ship on Aug 13.

[wingrunr]

Yes, I already ordered some samples from them. When I ordered, though, they said that you had to have either a .edu e-mail address or a business account.

[Greg in Canby]

if you register with Microchip, you can get 3 free samples and Microchip pays the shipping.

If this works for me I'm in for one, if not, I'm in for four (4).

Greg

[greenmeanie]

Whats the product # for the PIC from microchip.

[Wayne J]

Whats the product # for the PIC from microchip.

PIC16F688

then look for the 'I/P' package

8)

[JohnByrne]

I'd be in for some but probably not that many, maybe half dozen at most. I'll be watching to see where this goes.

[greenmeanie]

I didn't see the .edu statement on there.
They did say no free email accounts like hotmail ETC ETC.

[wingrunr]

I didn't see the .edu statement on there.
They did say no free email accounts like hotmail ETC ETC.

Well then everyone should go and see if they can get some samples! If you are building a Renard64, though, you'll need more!

[bonuts]

I ordered my samples from Microchip. I also ordered a PIC programmer off eBay today. I'll have to figure out how the hell to use it once it gets here (might be asking for some help). Firegod said this one worked for his PIC's. I know he uses a different type, but both are listed as compatible on the auction.

This is the one I got
http://cgi.ebay.com/Enhance-JDM-PIC-programmer-Microchip-40pin-ZIF-12F629_W0QQitemZ300132404187QQihZ020QQcategoryZ669 90QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/bf/0b/e5_1.JPG

Ernie had previously told me he thought the following one would work, but then I realized it's in China, whereas the one I ordered is coming from Canada. Figured maybe it will come faster.
http://cgi.ebay.com/JDM-PIC-Programmer-Microchip-16F84-40-18-zif-sockets_W0QQitemZ200137162626QQihZ010QQcategoryZ36 66QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotoh osting
http://images.virtualvillage.com/006401-002/001.jpg

[BillAd]

Bonuts,

I have the same one, works fine (better than the home built ones I crafted years ago). One hint: the help doc for the WinPic800 software has a picture where to place the chip but the picture is wrong. Look on the PCB and you’ll find notations where to locate the chip. The chip should be on the left side (using the picture you posted) of ZIF, one slot from the end with the chip notch pointing towards the handle. The easiest way to determine if the chip is correct is to select the detect hardware option and see if it knows what chip is mounted.


Bill

[wingrunr]

Good. I had the need to program a PIC 18F series (which is not supported by the JDM programmers, at least the one I'm using was not) so I have a PICkit2. Works well enough.

[JohnByrne]

Yep that is the one I got a long time ago. It works fine.

[bonuts]

Thanks for confirming guys. The programmer is on it's way and I received confirmation from Microchip my samples are coming too.

Wingrunr. Do I understand the following correctly. PIC's are $1.44 for orders under 100 and $1.40 over 100. A savings of only 4 cents per pic.

Say you're building two Ren64's, that 16 Pic's X .4 cents = 64 cents. There doesn't seem to be any advantage to a coop from a finaicial standpoint (once you consider second leg shipping). Am I wrong? In another thread you suggested about a $10 saving per Ren64 by doing a COOP.

You've generously offered to program the PIC's, so the obvious advantage of a COOP would be for the people that need this. If I'm unsuccessful programming my own I might well ask to participate in the coop and ask you to program mine too. But otherwise, I can't see an advantage.

Just want to make sure I'm not missing something here.

[Wayne J]

Wingrunr. Do I understand the following correctly. PIC's are $1.44 for orders under 100 and $1.40 over 100. A savings of only 4 cents per pic.

Say you're building two Ren64's, that 16 Pic's X .4 cents = 64 cents. There doesn't seem to be any advantage to a coop from a finaicial standpoint (once you consider second leg shipping). Am I wrong? In another thread you suggested about a $10 saving per Ren64 by doing a COOP.

The PIC's from Mouser are $2.69 each for quanities up to 24..... 25 or more are $1.44 each, and for 100 they are $1.40

So really, only 25 or more are needed to get a good deal.

http://www.mouser.com/search/productdetail.aspx?R=PIC16F688-I%2fPvirtualkey57940000virtualkey579-PIC16F688-I%2fP

I had in mind of buying a lot of 25 or more to program and send out for folks a few weeks ago.

[bonuts]

Ok, that's significant. But wingrunr was going to buy direct from Microchip (not Mouse). I just looked at their website and here is the breakdown...

1-25 1.47
26-99 1.44
100-999 1.40

so based on this I still don't see a significant finanial advantange to COOP. (someone offering to program them is still a big advantage).

[ErnieHorning]

I bought 25 a year ago and two were bad, one wouldn’t program and the other didn’t run. I don’t know what the DOA rate is for these, but I had an 8% failure rate. Maybe I got the short stick or maybe guys need to plan for extra.

[JerryWS98]

I'll be in for 16 PICs, and I'd greatly appreciate it if they could be programmed for me as well.

Many thanks to those of you who are making this possible for us! You guys rock!!!

[Wayne J]

Something to keep in mind........ A couple extra chips is not a bad idea to have laying around in case they are needed.

:wink:

[wingrunr]

Mouser has significantly lowered their prices for these PICs. When I originally looked, it was still about $2.20 for 100+ PICs. You are correct, at the current prices the financial upbeats are negligible. I still think shipping will be cheaper in the end but anyone who wishes to get some PICs is welcome to order.

Jerry, are you building the Renard64? I assume so from the quantity you ordered. Do you want the PWM firmware or the non-PWM. The PWM uses more power and will dim the on-board LEDs. The non-PWM uses less power and won't dim LEDs.

I always order extras of stuff so hopefully we don't get a high failure rate. If I get my Renard64 done early enough I'll test the PICs too. I suppose if anyone got a bad PIC I could just send them another one. I also don't know if I'll get additional money off at Microchip because I am a student.

[JerryWS98]

Yes, I'm building the Renard64. I've ordered 2 boards. I'd like to have the PWM firmware on these chips. Thanks a million for the offer to program them for me! Since you're ordering extras, let me know what my share of the cost will be. I'd hate for you to have to eat the cost of bad chips.


Mouser has significantly lowered their prices for these PICs. When I originally looked, it was still about $2.20 for 100+ PICs. You are correct, at the current prices the financial upbeats are negligible. I still think shipping will be cheaper in the end but anyone who wishes to get some PICs is welcome to order.

Jerry, are you building the Renard64? I assume so from the quantity you ordered. Do you want the PWM firmware or the non-PWM. The PWM uses more power and will dim the on-board LEDs. The non-PWM uses less power and won't dim LEDs.

I always order extras of stuff so hopefully we don't get a high failure rate. If I get my Renard64 done early enough I'll test the PICs too. I suppose if anyone got a bad PIC I could just send them another one. I also don't know if I'll get additional money off at Microchip because I am a student.

[ErnieHorning]

If you buy from Mouser, the break over point is 14. If you need less than this, a Coop will save you money. More than 14, you may as well buy them yourself. At 100, the difference is only 4 bucks over the 25 part price.

[wingrunr]

If you buy from Mouser, the break over point is 14. If you need less than this, a Coop will save you money. More than 14, you may as well buy them yourself. At 100, the difference is only 4 bucks over the 25 part price.

Correct unless they need to be programmed. So I guess this coop is for those that need the chips programmed. This will save people having to send me or someone else the chips and me having to send them back.

[grages]

wingrunr,

I guess I need to get into this for 2 boards worth which is 16. And I guess the PWM firmware. Although I am in for 5 boards some are for future use and by then I will buy a programmer.

Shawn

[bonuts]

wingrunr. when are you thinking about ordering them? my programmer and pic samples are on their way. when they get here I'll see if I can successfully program pics. if so, I'll just order my remaining pic's direct from Microchip. if not, and if you haven't ordered by then, I'll ask to get in on the coop. thanks.

[wingrunr]

I'll order shortly after wjohn orders the Renard64 boards for the official coop. I will post here a few days before I place the order.

grages I've got you down for 16 on the PWM firmware.

[wingrunr]

wjohn has ordered the PCBs so I will place the PIC order next Friday, the 24th. If we have enough (which I think we do) I'll order from Mouser because they ship faster than Microchip. I'll probably order 8 extra PICs in case of DOAs.

This information has been reflected in the first post.

As for payment, Paypal is strongly encouraged. No money orders. Personal checks are fine but I'd rather you used Paypal. Please no checks from outside the US. I'd rather not deal with exchange rates for those. The paypal account is wingedfeet800@sbcglobal.net. I will let you know the final amount once I place the order. Thanks!

[Doug-in-the-woods]

Need for the renard64 board so I assumeits 16 chips?
I need to order 18 of these puppies.
Just let me know when, how much and where?
now where are the transformer board coops

[Doug-in-the-woods]

I guess I only need 8 + 2 extra pics programed.
let me know who where etc for pics

[Doug-in-the-woods]

I guess if I plan on installing leds etc I need this PwM code??

[wingrunr]

Doug-in-the-woods I've got you for 10 with the PWM firmware.

[bonuts]

I ordered my samples from Microchip. I also ordered a PIC programmer off eBay today.

This is the one I got
http://cgi.ebay.com/Enhance-JDM-PIC-programmer-Microchip-40pin-ZIF-12F629_W0QQitemZ300132404187QQihZ020QQcategoryZ669 90QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/bf/0b/e5_1.JPG


My PIC programmer arrived the other day (fast shipping from Canada to Texas using regular Canada Post mail). Tested with the included f12629 and all looked good.

Got my samples from Microchip today and I think I successfully programed them with the diag code. I will have to see about buying a LED and resistor from radio shack to test whether the LED blinks.

I have also attached a WORD doc with the notes I compiled from disparate sources in case it helps anybody. If anyone is upset that I did not credit them, tell me and I will take it down.

Thanks for everyone's help with my questions.

[Macrosill]

bonuts,
Very informative document. This is going to be of great help when I try to program my 1st pic, I have never done that before.

I would like the more experienced pic programmers here to look over that document and with your permission maybe we could add it to the wiki for everyone to see. This way it will not get buried in a thread.

[Doug-in-the-woods]

conversing w ayne that I would be better off without the LEDs and I don't need the PWM ??
Will the renard work with or without the PWM?
If so then will take the 10 pcs w/or with out PWM?

[P. Short]

Could you repost that document in text (or html or pdf) format? Anything but the Microsoft-proprietary (and virus-prone) format.

--

Phil

[wingrunr]

conversing w ayne that I would be better off without the LEDs and I don't need the PWM ??
Will the renard work with or without the PWM?
If so then will take the 10 pcs w/or with out PWM?

I am personally using the LEDs and PWM firmware but I am also using my computer power supply for the +5 volt power. That has amperage to spare so I don't particularly mind. Just tell me either way what you want.

[Wayne J]

conversing w ayne that I would be better off without the LEDs and I don't need the PWM ??
Will the renard work with or without the PWM?
If so then will take the 10 pcs w/or with out PWM?

Whoa....I think there has been some confusion. I don't remember telling anyone that they would be better off without the LEDs on their board. I have said though, that IF one is not using LEDs in their display then the non-PWM firmware can be used. The one drawback is that the channel status LEDs will not dim as the sequence. (my understanding) If I was misunderstood my appoligizes, just want to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. This is all new hardware and we are still learning. :wink:
8)

[bonuts]

my compiled notes on pic programming, saved as .html in WORD, reposted for Phil and others to audit.

[P. Short]

There is another way of programing the PIC using that software, which I find to be a bit more convenient. Wayne was working on creating a video of this other process at one time.

--

Phil

[Doug-in-the-woods]

Sorry Wayne if I misunderstood you.
No I am not using leds in my display so the non PWM pic is just fine.
Was planning onputting the leds on the Renard board etc but there is really no need.
Put me down for 10 non PWM pics
Thanks
just let me know who when, where

[P. Short]

Right now I would like to strongly encourage people to obtain their own programmer. You will be much happier if there are any changes to the firmware if you have made that purchase.

Remember, only about half a dozen people had used Renards in their actual displays last year (none of them with PWM, AFAIK). I suspect that very few (if any) people have done any extended testing with large setups since that time. So it would not surprise me if there were to be some minor glitches that required re-programming the PICs. Therefore, I recommend that you purchase a PIC programmer to make it easier to handle that situation.

--

Phil

[wingrunr]

If you are going to purchase your own programmer and subsequently wish to not participate in the coop, please post here ASAP. The order WILL go out tomorrow.

[bonuts]

wingrunr. I was finally able to built a test circuit and confirm I successfully programmed my sample PIC's. So, I sincerely thank you for running this effort, but I will not be participating.

BTW, where are you planning on buying? I'm thinking I'm going to buy direct from Microchip because I'm not in a rush (the samples came in a little over a week).

[bonuts]

I'd like to clean up my notes and add it as a new WIKI page, but I don't appear to have create priviledges.

[wingrunr]

I have placed the order directly from Microchip. They ship very fast. I ordered 70 PICs. That will give us 12 in reserve.
Here is a breakdown of everything:

Each PIC was $1.44.
The order totaled $110.30.
Shipping was $9.50 / 4 = $2.38 a person
At $1.44 a PIC if you ordered 16 that is $23.04. If you ordered 10 that is $14.40.
I believe I am going to ship flat rate USPS padded envelope. That is $4.60 each.
You asked to help absorb the costs of the extra. You guys can help with 8. That is $2.88 additional per person.
Total for 16 PICs = $32.90 = With Paypal fees = $34.19
Total for 10 PICs = $24.26 = With Paypal fees = $25.29

Please send the amount with Paypal fees. PM me your address.

[Doug-in-the-woods]

I see everyone else is going PWM firmware so I guess I will jump in with PWM ware as well
Thanks
Address etc in paypal w a little extra

[dvanteslaar]

I ordered my samples from Microchip. I also ordered a PIC programmer off eBay today.

This is the one I got
http://cgi.ebay.com/Enhance-JDM-PIC-programmer-Microchip-40pin-ZIF-12F629_W0QQitemZ300132404187QQihZ020QQcategoryZ669 90QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i17.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/bf/0b/e5_1.JPG


My PIC programmer arrived the other day (fast shipping from Canada to Texas using regular Canada Post mail). Tested with the included f12629 and all looked good.

Got my samples from Microchip today and I think I successfully programed them with the diag code. I will have to see about buying a LED and resistor from radio shack to test whether the LED blinks.

I have also attached a WORD doc with the notes I compiled from disparate sources in case it helps anybody. If anyone is upset that I did not credit them, tell me and I will take it down.

Thanks for everyone's help with my questions.


Thanks for the information on this unit ... I got the same package (from Canada) for $18.25 USD, which included shipping. Not a bad deal - thanks for the heads-up again!

David

[wingrunr]

Thanks Doug-in-the-woods, I've got you changed for PWM and recorded your payment/shipping. I still need payment from the other two guys. Hopefully Microchip will get them here in the next few days and I can just get them all programmed and sent out.

[bonuts]

This is somewhat documented in my notes (posted earlier in this threat) but if you want to build a simple test circuit to prove you can successfully program a 16f688's, I took a picture of mine.

IMPORTANT: not in my notes is the fact that you have to grab this version of the diag code (requires registering on the CC.com site), the diag code on the WIKI needs an external osolator. http://computerchristmas.com/ForumBoard/read.php?f=4&i=10071&t=10065

[Wayne J]

Then we need to get that .asm file in the Wiki. ;)

[wingrunr]

PICs came today. Will program them and ship them ASAP.

[wingrunr]

We got lucky I think. I got all the PICs programmed. To those who have paid, I sent your stuff out via FedEx today. It was a bit more shipping than I originally thought. That's ok though, the extra you paid for extra PICs will cover that. So the cost remains the same. I'll PM you the tracking numbers. Should be a few days.

[bonuts]

... if you register with Microchip, you can get 3 free samples... Note: If you can make your own adaptor boards, you can also get 3 each of the other (3) case styles. I got 12 chips coming, free of charge. :D


I received my 12 samples from Microchip. I don't suppose anyone would post instructions how to make adaptor boards for one or more of the other 3 case styles?

PIC16F688-I/SL; PIC16F688-I/ML; PIC16F688-I/ST

One is a "Thin Shrink Small Outline (ST) – 4.4 mm (TSSOP)"; one is a "Small Outline (SL) – Narrow, 150 mil (SOIC)"; I don't know what the third is called.

Thanks.

[grages]

... if you register with Microchip, you can get 3 free samples... Note: If you can make your own adaptor boards, you can also get 3 each of the other (3) case styles. I got 12 chips coming, free of charge. :D


I received my 12 samples from Microchip. I don't suppose anyone would post instructions how to make adaptor boards for one or more of the other 3 case styles?

PIC16F688-I/SL; PIC16F688-I/ML; PIC16F688-I/ST

One is a "Thin Shrink Small Outline (ST) – 4.4 mm (TSSOP)"; one is a "Small Outline (SL) – Narrow, 150 mil (SOIC)"; I don't know what the third is called.

Thanks.

You did not have to get all of the same PIC. I got the three that would be useful for the Renard and three of the four that I need for the FireGod setup ( and they are expensive $10.90 each at mouser). Three that would be useful for a radio project I'm considering. And then I have a Mechatronics book that has some projects that I want to try.

PIC16F688-I/P Renard 64
PIC16F870-I/SP
PIC18F4525-I/P FireGod Controller
and one other that I can't find the number for right now.

You might look here to see what some adapters look like. Maybe the link is helpful :)

http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory= 30

[ErnieHorning]

I’ve only made an adaptor for SIOC so far, and I only needed one; for my original Renard prototype that I made last year. I made it by layering two boards that plugged together for the adaptor that then plugged into the Renard. It was about .1” wider then DIP IC, but I had more room than there is on the Renard 64.

I think I can squeeze the SOIC and the TSSOP inside the .31 inches that a DIP IC is. I’m not sure if I can even solder the QFP style since it has no leads. I use this type at work, but it’s normally soldered with hot air and fabricated circuit boards.

I mill al of my proto boards on a CNC milling system and the QFP traces are dang small. I don’t know if you can home etch traces that small either. At the moment, I don’t actually need the QFP ones to make the boards I need, but I may give it a shot just to see if I can use them.

[grages]

We got lucky I think. I got all the PICs programmed. To those who have paid, I sent your stuff out via FedEx today. It was a bit more shipping than I originally thought. That's ok though, the extra you paid for extra PICs will cover that. So the cost remains the same. I'll PM you the tracking numbers. Should be a few days.

My PICs arrived today as the tracking number indicated it would. Thanks Winged Runner

Shawn

[wingrunr]

Good. Jerry, still waiting on $$ so I can ship your PICs.

[JetMech]

... if you register with Microchip, you can get 3 free samples... Note: If you can make your own adaptor boards, you can also get 3 each of the other (3) case styles. I got 12 chips coming, free of charge. :D

You did not have to get all of the same PIC. I got the three that would be useful for the Renard and three of the four that I need for the FireGod setup ( and they are expensive $10.90 each at mouser). Three that would be useful for a radio project I'm considering. And then I have a Mechatronics book that has some projects that I want to try.

PIC16F688-I/P Renard 64
PIC16F870-I/SP
PIC18F4525-I/P FireGod Controller
and one other that I can't find the number for right now.


FYI:
Microchip allowed me 2 sample orders within a 40 day period. Both orders were the same set of PIC's.
I've received:
6ea PIC16F688-I/P
6ea PIC18F4525-I/P
6ea PIC18LF4525-I/P
6ea PIC18F4620-I/P

These PIC's would have cost $183.60 plus shipping from Mouser.

:lol:
John