Control Neutral and Hot with different SSR

[vziukas]

Hi,

recently I got idea:
what if control neutral and hot of lights with different SSROZ.
I start thinking about that for Mega tree. As usual mega tree is one color
at a time. Ex. Whole tree in white, white chase then whole tree in red, red chase ... whole green, green chase and blue .. blue chase.
So ex. we have 16 channels for each color. We need 48 channels in normal configuration.
but what if:
use 16 channels and hook all 4 color lights HOT on each channel,
and connect NEUTRAL of each color on another channel (another SSROZ module). So use 4 channels for NEUTRAL control.
so using 20 channels (4SSORZ) modules we can have same effect as 48 channels.

As I discuss in those forums:
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3907
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3908

I think it should work even with dimming.

I can provide drawing if did not express myself right way.

What you think :confused:

[ErnieHorning]

It might work, but I’m thinking more that it won’t so well.

The problem biggest obstacle is going to be satisfying the minimum current on the TRIAC’s. Normally a TRIAC needs a small amount of current (holding current) passing through it to be able to turn on. The Non-PWM version of Renard only turns the gate of the TRIAC on for 32 microseconds and then off again. A TRIAC stays on by itself, once turned on, until the AC voltage drops back near zero. This is actually when the current drops below the holding current value for the TRIAC. Phil has already added changes to the Renard software to ignore a few of the lowest dimming values because of problems with the minimum current. I think you’re going to see even more problems when you add an additional TRIAC in series that’s separately controlled. It may work fine with the PWM version of Renard, since the micro pin stays on for the same time that the TRIAC would. This forces the TRIAC to stay on, even it shuts of early in the cycle.

I actually thought of doing something like this a couple of years ago. I wanted to make a matrix of C7’s, similar to LEDtriks. I abandon it mostly because of the power requirements, lack of time and other interests.

Some people were talking about something similar to your idea on Planet Christmas, except they were using AC relays on the TRIAC outputs for the additional 4 channels. Some videos were posted of actual operation, so the method does work!

[vziukas]

Thanks for comments.
Idea is interesting. But I will leave it for somebody to try. Or will try myself when all other Xmas stuff will be ready.
By the way I create circuit if somebody want to try.
64 Lights control by 20 channel.
I think it should be like this in attachment.

[TERBObob]

Think that , that would get kinda confusing when programming Vixen .
So , if I understand this correctly , you would need to turn on BOTH the neutral controlled SSR channel line AND the hot sided SSR channel line for the single channel to work . Correct ?

For example , using your diagram :

You would need to turn on ( in the Vixen program )

the U5 channel 1 AND U1 channel 1 to turn on the first channel of U1 ?
And then U5 channel 1 and U1 channel 2 to turn on the second channel ?

So , is this does work , you would need to first , use one heck of a SP1 ( or SP2 ) wire configuration , or something . And , you would need to use TWO channels each time you want a particular light , or strand of lights to turn on ( in Vixen ) ?
Great thought , but like I said , would be confusing when doing the sequence programming .

[vziukas]

Think that , that would get kinda confusing when programming Vixen .
So , if I understand this correctly , you would need to turn on BOTH the neutral controlled SSR channel line AND the hot sided SSR channel line for the single channel to work . Correct ?

For example , using your diagram :

You would need to turn on ( in the Vixen program )

the U5 channel 1 AND U1 channel 1 to turn on the first channel of U1 ?
And then U5 channel 1 and U1 channel 2 to turn on the second channel ?

So , is this does work , you would need to first , use one heck of a SP1 ( or SP2 ) wire configuration , or something . And , you would need to use TWO channels each time you want a particular light , or strand of lights to turn on ( in Vixen ) ?
Great thought , but like I said , would be confusing when doing the sequence programming .

Yes, little bit confusing, but actually you gave 16 channels for lights and 4 channels for tree color. Check attachment.
To create that stuff best is to have 5 SSROZ boards not installed to any enclosure and install all 5 in one box and supply 1 power, 5 cat5e and get 64 power outputs. And yes, maybe to use SP1 cords as I did in my normal SSROZ at http://www.christmasinallen.com/ssr.aspx

[A Marchini]

Hi,

recently I got idea:
what if control neutral and hot of lights with different SSROZ.
I start thinking about that for Mega tree. As usual mega tree is one color
at a time. Ex. Whole tree in white, white chase then whole tree in red, red chase ... whole green, green chase and blue .. blue chase.
So ex. we have 16 channels for each color. We need 48 channels in normal configuration.
but what if:
use 16 channels and hook all 4 color lights HOT on each channel,
and connect NEUTRAL of each color on another channel (another SSROZ module). So use 4 channels for NEUTRAL control.
so using 20 channels (4SSORZ) modules we can have same effect as 48 channels.

As I discuss in those forums:
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3907
http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3908

I think it should work even with dimming.

I can provide drawing if did not express myself right way.

What you think :confused:

I have seen this on the PC website I think? I remember they were doing it with LOR.. expanding the channel set.

Its been a few months since I read the idea.
The thread may still be there somewhere.
Tony M.

[ErnieHorning]

Well, with just the right PIC and with the speed that Phil writes programs… J/K :p

I think that writing a sequence for this would just be an electronic hairball anyway, even if you did manage to get the hardware working. I have enough headaches creating sequences for the normal hardware.

Here’s a couple of video showing the relay version connected to a Light-O-Rama controller.

Explanation: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pEIbhQWerPU

Demonstration: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5BNk4zDY-NI

[TERBObob]

Ok ... is it just my imagination , or does it seem in the second video that he actually had dimming going on there ? ( at the 1:42 section of the second video )
I guess , maybe with the relay set at open , there would be dimming abilities ?

vziukas.
if this does work ... that would be SUPER ( once you get the past the programming confusion ... LOL )
I see what you did , but it would still get my brain cells REALLY wamted up making sure I hit the right cells ... LOL

[P. Short]

I'm not sure this would work too well with incandescent lights (I'm assuming that you are only trying to do static switching). If the neutral outputs are called ABCD, and the hot outputs are called WXYZ, then what happens when you try to turn on the light AX? There are lots of sneak paths for the current as well (AY -> YB -> BW, and so forth). It wouldn't surprise me if this turns out to be less than totally reliable, with flashing and lights that aren't totally off and so forth. Using either LEDs or electromechanical relays should work out better.

[TERBObob]

Phil ,
Not really sure which channels you are talking about , but , ( and no , please don't misunderstand me ... I NOT one of you guru's here , just maybe someone with a little common sense .. maybe - LOL )
Even if you just ran 2 SSR pcb's , for a total of 8 channels ( Vixen ) . With his configuration , wouldn't you at LEAST end up with a good 16 channels instead ?

[vziukas]

Phil ,
Not really sure which channels you are talking about , but , ( and no , please don't misunderstand me ... I NOT one of you guru's here , just maybe someone with a little common sense .. maybe - LOL )
Even if you just ran 2 SSR pcb's , for a total of 8 channels ( Vixen ) . With his configuration , wouldn't you at LEAST end up with a good 16 channels instead ?
You should get 16 channels but not REAL.
You will get 4 groups of 4 channels and at once only 4 channels can be ON.
You can enable more but will be same in both groups on ex:
(chanels HOT)
N 1 2 3 4
E 5 6 7 8
U 9 10 11 12
T 13 14 15 16

so you can do 1, 2, 3, 4 chase or 5, 6, 7, 8 chase
but you can not do 1 5 7 12 at the same time, as this will light 3, 4, 8, 9, 11
also you can do 1 5 9 13 or 2 6 10 14 its ok
or turn all on.
I think best is to assign each group to color:
1 2 3 4 white
5 6 7 8 red
9 10 11 12 blue
13 14 15 16 green
so you can play with each color separately.

[P. Short]

Try it and see. It's simple to do, better than just talking, and there isn't much to lose.

[Ronp]

20 relays could give you 64 channels 16 x4 color.
20 channels used in vixen 16 for the sequence and 4 to change the color.
Ive been wanting to try this since the arches came out.
also I will use 20 amp relays for the 4 color relays and just switch the power feeds

[RavingLunatic]

I would suggest that you use "puck" style SSRs instead of the SSROZ or COOP SSR on the neutrals. With 16 channels for each color the neutral will be carrying about 5.33 amps when all are on and thats probably too much for those boards.


This idea has come up before using different methods but never seems to gain much traction here. At PC it does get attention due to the cost per channel of the LOR equipment, they find it useful.

I would think that if you are going to the effort to build a 4 color mega tree then you would also want to do some multi-color effects also. But thats just me. ;)

[ErnieHorning]

Ok ... is it just my imagination, or does it seem in the second video that he actually had dimming going on there?
Yes you can dim the normal channels. Remember, the neutrals are controlled by mechanical relays.

It would be interesting to see if this could be done with TRIAC’s.


Ive been wanting to try this since the arches came out.
I believe that’s what spawned the idea, because the LOR hardware is so expensive and a lot of the DIY’ers was using 8 times or more channels.

[TERBObob]

I would think that if you are going to the effort to build a 4 color mega tree then you would also want to do some multi-color effects also. But thats just me.
But , there are many other uses besides the mega tree for a setup like that .
Say , for example , your outframing of your house . Personally , I can't recall anybody having their red , green , clear bordering the outline of their house , all on at the same time . Same with the arches .
Now , yes , I agree about the mega tree though ... but , like I said , there are many other options for that setup , other than the mega tree .
And one more thing ... ( for those os us that are not 100 per cent sure why you said the following ) :


I would suggest that you use "puck" style SSRs instead of the SSROZ or COOP SSR on the neutrals. With 16 channels for each color the neutral will be carrying about 5.33 amps when all are on and thats probably too much for those boards.

Are you referring to the triacs themselves , or the traces on the PCB , or both ? Reason I ask - I thought the triacs were rated at 8 amps with heatsinks ? And couldn't the main traces be "beefed" up to handle more amperage ? Say , like running a strip of wire to accomadate the added amperage ?
Or ... even better yet . Someone to design a single PCB that would take the place of all five SSR pcb's and that way a noob ( or anybody for that matter ), could simply hook up the AC lines as per instructed and other connections as required ? That way , you would only have one board to contend with , and have all 64 channels on one board with the beefed up traces/runs for the added amperage for the triacs .