Should this Newbie do this? or...??

[ThaiWay]

I think I'm ready to take the plunge into dimming with DIYC at my small 3-story townhouse (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=3f6ca2f0c2a740d2b82175189b132fba) in Bangkok. I've gone through most of the 7 Steps Wiki. So far, I've sketched my layout. Definitely want dimming. Decentralized topology. I have planned for concentrated clusters of channels (leaping arches, 4-color/8-section house outline, mini trees, a huge fan, snowflakes etc) and want to start with 128.

Now it gets tricky. Serial or DMX? I use standard FWR LED strings and 4-color LED Rope extensively, and like to incorporate slow cross-fades sometimes in my show. I have not achieved good results doing this with my "commercial" usb>RS232>CONV-2>LC-16 boards; therefore I've been leaning towards the Lynx with DC Pulse Wave Dimming. But I don't have any experience with other Serial hardware nor any with DMX to make an educated decision.

Availability and cost are big considerations too. As is working with 220V/50Hz and 110V in my display. (I'm using many standard FWR LED 110V strings as well as some minis and tons of 220V 100-ct 5mm's and 4-color LED rope.) So is what are going to be substantial shipping costs to Thailand.

If I go with eight Renard16's, there's no COOP open now. I'm not comfortable with having to shop a BOM at Mouser or the like., but... And I'd have to source enclosures locally. I could try to shop the BOM locally, but this will take considerable time. Communication is also a factor... my Thai is good for taxi, restaurant, and "how much?" shopping and not much more.

If I go with Lynx, costs are higher... plus dongle, maybe splitter too. There's an open Lynx COOP but no telling when the threshold will be met. I've missed the Tiger SSR16 w/DMX adapter COOP by a day; the dongle pcb is still open, the splitter closed. With Lynx, I wouldn't have to worry about boxes and I'd get superior fades(?) Hmmm... complete kits would really be the ticket for me.

I've done a lot of reading here and on DLA. Some of what I read is way over my head technically, but I think I have a good grasp of the basics. The Wiki's are great! But my research forces to me realize my limitations as well. You have an amazing community here, and I've learned a lot in the past four days. I only wish I'd navigated here at the beginning of the year....

Sorry to be so long-winded, but putting my thoughts down on - er, uh, IN - cyberspace has helped me organize my plan and think about options. Thanks for taking the time to read it, and I hope I can benefit from your expertise. Suggestions and comments are welcome. Let's do this!

[Penfold]

For 128 channels right from the get go, I would suggest 2 Renard 64 as this board isn't as intricate as the Ren16 or Ren24 thus it might be easier locating components. You could always try to etch the board your self. WayneJ has done a simply magnificent job on etching his own boards. A group buy may become available, but only time will tell.

On the other hand Frank is doing several Group buys for his Renard 24 board (I personally have several and are a very nice design). He should be having another Group Buy soon. Keep checking back on availability.

The limitations with the Renard system is that you can't hook up more then 287 channels to a serial port at 100ms refresh (143 at 50ms) currently. This may increase in the near future if the baud rate can be increased to 115200 instead of the current 56000. You can add more channels but you would have to have a second serial port or a serial port card.

DMX on the other hand can support 500+ channels, but is much more expensive. Currently Robert Jordan handles the Group buys for the lynx system on his website. You can find links to his page in the posts under the lynx forum.

I believe that the majority of the DIY community dabbles in the Renard Serial system. If you go to the Wiki you can find out more.

[Virtus]

The Renard24 sounds like a good fit for your distributed plan. This link just came out and it sounds like a good USB-RS485 adapter can burst the old thoughput rule of thumb... http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25820&postcount=63
The DMX option is good, too, so it really comes down to which you feel more inclined to adopt and run with. You can't really go wrong when the two solutions you are considering are so strong.

[ThaiWay]

Thanks guys for your responses. This really is the hardest and most important choice I have to make. I think locating controllers with on-board SSR's best suits my plan. I like the idea of the Ren64 but don't want to build 32 pods and have to make up all those cat5 cables. And sourcing suitable boxes here in Bangkok is going to be difficult and expensive... no HD or Lowes I can run to! I'll keep checking on availability in the COOP section... Ren16's(xmus) or 24's might be the way to go. On the other hand, I've got my head around RJ's site, and like that the DMX option comes as a complete kit, and the channel/device number is good for future expansion. Availability is an issue there too though.

I'm looking into home etching as well, thanks to WayneJ's resources. But again, finding what I need here for this project outside of lights and basic electrical supplies is going to involve a lot of footwork (hours stuck in our famous Bangkok gridlock) and expense.

I can't think of anything else in my life right now... fever has set in, at least until I decide and make a purchase. In the meantime I'll keep plugging away and you feel free to chime in!

[BuzzKill]

I like the idea of the Ren64 but don't want to build 32 pods and have to make up all those cat5 cables.

There is no rule that says you have to make all the SSR's seperate and remote. You could group them in the same enclosure as the Ren64 and use a short CAT5 to the SSR from the REN64. Or you could make "pods" with multiple SSR's and that would make it easier to break out the SSR's to different electrical circuits so you don't blow every breaker in the building. The advantage here is that you could build both 120V and 220V SSR's and run them from the same REN64 and you maintain some modularity to your system. Don't forget to keep an eye on your power consumption. 64 channels at only 1 amp per channel is still 64 amps if you turn everything on at the same time. ;)

[P. Short]

Just out of curiosity, is the Lynx really more expensive? I always thought that it was less expensive, or at least on par with the Renard builds after high-quality enclosures are factored in.

[ThaiWay]

Just out of curiosity, is the Lynx really more expensive? I always thought that it was less expensive, or at least on par with the Renard builds after high-quality enclosures are factored in.

The current coop for Lynx prices out at US$101.78 for non-US users, plus S&H... and at 39 bucks per USPS box, ouch!


There is no rule that says you have to make all the SSR's seperate and remote.... The advantage here is that you could build both 120V and 220V SSR's and run them from the same REN64 .... Don't forget to keep an eye on your power consumption.

I like the idea of a Ren64 but still, all those cat5 cables either internal or running around... it just makes more sense for my application to build 16-channel controllers with on-board SSR's... daisy chain them... choose whether each is 110 or 220V, and place them near the highly concentrated channel clusters. As i'm almost exclusively LED and mostly one string per channel, I'm not worried about power consumption.

[ThaiWay]

The limitations with the Renard system is that you can't hook up more then 287 channels to a serial port at 100ms refresh (143 at 50ms) currently...
Forgive my ignorance... is this a limitation with Renard? or more generally with serial communications?

[Penfold]

This limitation is with Renard, but the limitation can be lifted somewhat, by adding more serial ports to your computer. I have a Compaq and it has two serial ports on the back. You can also use USB to Serial converters, which will give you a couple of more ports. If you are really channel hungry then I believe you can get a PCI serial card and plug that into your mother board giving you a couple more Serial ports.

Also, for new users (Myself included) you can use the 100ms refresh rate for most of your songs unless you have a song that has a fast tempo then you might have to move up to the 50ms or 10ms (Although I really haven't heard too many people using the 10ms)

There is definitely room for improvement, but I would focus on the 128channels that you are striving for right now. With one Serial port you should be good to go. Even if you don't have a Serial port you can always go with the USB to Serial converter and you should be able to run your 128channels.

I hope this helped.

[ThaiWay]

Thanks MrP... when I did my limited display last season I had to get a USB>Serial converter. I had such a big comm problem when i tried to use my old boards last season with a computer i borrowed, and then terrible LED fades/ramps... I never want to go through that again. Plus I didn't know of these two AWESOME forums DLA/DIYC at the time, and I had no support from the Company until I found a guy at a network equipment shop who spoke English! Go figure... it was Christmas already before it got sorted. So I have a little experience with how to get the connection to the hardware.

I don't want to attempt more than 128 channels for this season. That's more than enough! But a couple things really concern me... future expansion and throughput. There's a rather technical thread here http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=35430#post35430 about baud rates, but it's way over my head.

I just want to do it right this time!

[Penfold]

Everything currently is operating at 56000kbs as far as the baud rates in the Renard systems are concerned. A baud rate as I understand it is the rate at which packets of information are sent out to the lights. The larger the baud rate the more information can be transmitted. The more aggressive baud rate of 115200kbs is trying to be achieved if it hasn't already. If the faster the baud rate can be stablized enough the only thing that will hopefully have to be done is reprogramming (Reflashing) the PICs.

Don't worry I know it seems overwhelming right now, but it's been about a year since I have researched and right now I am up to the point where I feel a little comfortable with it. I have a lot more to learn and the guys in these forums are some of the nicest people I have ever had the priviledge to talk to.

[WWWilson]

Just an idea. If you can find a US based partner that is doing a project similar to yours, maybe you could partner with them getting boards and parts. Someone who at least sort of knows what they are doing gets the boards, orders parts from Mouser (heck, you can order them from anywhere and have them shipped within the US) Somebody who would be willing to open the Mouser box, double check the boards, verify with you that they have laying on the workbench exactly what you need, then boom, one box on one airplane insured direct to your house. Everything you need to order is available online rather quickly.
With some of the parts coops I have seen these guys do, doubling an order, repacking it and shipping it overseas should be a cake walk.
I would also think it would be less expensive as some small orders are only $3-4 shipped in the US. Even the shipping on ten orders, combined into one international shipping would save money.

Just an idea.

[ThaiWay]

... and the guys in these forums are some of the nicest people I have ever had the priviledge to talk to.


Just an idea. If you can find a US based partner that is doing a project similar to yours, maybe you could partner with them getting boards and parts...

MrP and MRWWW... I really appreciate your input. I think I have a basic understanding of the baud rate thingy now, and partnering with someone in USA is an excellent idea! I am so happy that I found DIYC and DLA too... I couldn't accomplish what I hope will be an ott display without the great people in these communities who are so willing to share their knowledge and help newbies like me.

That said, I've made a decision to go DMX. I'm entering the coops for AussiePhil's Tiger SSR16 w/DMX adapter and a DMX Dongle. I'll be hanging around here at DIYC a lot too... there's so much information I want and need to learn. Already I've made giant steps just in the past week!

Thanks again for being here.
Chok Dee (Thai for "good luck!")