Am I going to have to spend 2000 dollars

[Sloanhaus]

I am new and have researched this for about 7 months and have built my boards and am now preparing the setup. If I am going to have about 140 channels, am I going to need to add a new subpanel to my house. I have looked online and people say it is 2000 to do this. Is everyone in here that is running this many channels doing this or is their another way. Keep in mind that I know very little about electricity,,, I can install a fan and change out light and electrical outlets. Thanks,

[deplanche]

The big question is what are you going to be running on those 140 channels?

If you are trying to do 3 light strings off each, which is about 1 A total per channel, then, yes, I would think you need to upgrade. But if you are running single strings, bulbs, or LEDs, then it may not be needed. Give us a better idea what you are doing, and we can help you out a bit more. Maybe not me personally, but one of the bright people here.

[Sloanhaus]

I am going to be mostly running single strands and double. The setup will be 8 Renard 16 and 2 renard 24's, however I doubt I will get above 128 channels.

[ctmal]

I'm also a newbie but I would think it would also depend on what you have available to you in your current circuit panel.
They say each string of 100 lights is about 1/3 amp so 128 of them will be about 43 Amps. That is if you have all channels on at once.

[gizmo]

$2000 sounds high to me (i do heating and cooling) however depending on where you live and the service you have existing may be a good ballpark.

Just a little info on my plan to power my display (im new also going from 5000 lights to hopefully 25,000 lights) im going to use my air conditioner disconnect its 40 amps at 220 volts which in effect gives me 80 amps worth of available power @ 110 volts (and is not used in the winter). Now i will need to make a distribution center which will cost about $200 or so. all the other power will come from my existing outdoor outlets and garage outlets. for a total of about 120 amps available or aprox 240 strings of 100 count minis (number of channels does not matter just amp draw when added up).

NOW TO KEEP ME FROM GETTING SUED

the above is MY plan to power a display and everyone should consult with a qualified person before powering any type of outdoor display.I did not give details on the distrigbution center by plan as not to indorse my design.

as you can see there are options when trying to obtain power (amps) you just need to think a little outside the box

hope this helps,
scott

[gizmo]

CTMAL you just beat me to to punch

Your totally correct abour not all lights will be on at the same time.

[tonypgst]

I just emailed you back with the details of how I calculated my needs and installed my subpanel. It all depends on how maxed out your main breaker panel space and current service capacity is compared to what is available. I was able to get away with spending about $160 for all the parts I needed for my install. The hardest part was running the 6/3 with ground wire from the main panel to the subpanel. Just be careful, research, and ask plenty of questions until your sure you know what your doing. :)

Regards,

[jeffathompson]

CTMAL you just beat me to to punch

Your totally correct about not all lights will be on at the same time.

Keep in mind that Vixen has a Watt meter plugin. Run it. You would be surprised how efficient you can make your lights. I did inventory and the math. I have 25,900 lights which if all on would be about 88 amps. I have a 200 amp service I installed about 3 years ago (did it myself but wouldn't recomend that) I figured to split my use up to 5 circuts to be safe. I ran my sequences in Vixen and didn't top 20 amps at any time. (18 was the max actually) Unless you live way out in the country or have your lights 1/2 mile from the road (I am on a very busy street) 25,000 lights on at once would probably have the cops out for a traffic hazard.

Make sure you have enough, but with the proper circut breakers you don't really need overkill.

[Greg Young]

I am new and have researched this for about 7 months and have built my boards and am now preparing the setup. If I am going to have about 140 channels, am I going to need to add a new subpanel to my house. I have looked online and people say it is 2000 to do this. Is everyone in here that is running this many channels doing this or is their another way. Keep in mind that I know very little about electricity,,, I can install a fan and change out light and electrical outlets. Thanks,

I would take some of that money, and purchase LEDs, instead of incandescents. That will drop your electrical requirements significantly (depending on how many you replace of course), and you may not need a subpanel.
I was up to well over 100 amps for the display in total, but am down quite a bit now, with the gradual changeover to LEDs. I saved the cost of an additional panel, which I was going to need for my 06 display.
The additional costs of using LEDs was in my case more than offset by the additional electrical work I would have needed to have done, had I kept using incandescents.
Greg

[Macrosill]

I would take some of that money, and purchase LEDs, instead of incandescents. That will drop your electrical requirements significantly (depending on how many you replace of course), and you may not need a subpanel.
I was up to well over 100 amps for the display in total, but am down quite a bit now, with the gradual changeover to LEDs. I saved the cost of an additional panel, which I was going to need for my 06 display.
The additional costs of using LEDs was in my case more than offset by the additional electrical work I would have needed to have done, had I kept using incandescents.
Greg

Thats some great advice Greg! Definitely a sound way to utilize some display cash and offset most if not all the cost of service upgrades.

[cvyvial]

Depending on how far you need to locate the panel the parts cost could be $200-$500. If you don't know what you are doing I would suggest getting the help of someone that does. The big expense will be the wire. Copper prices seem to have stabilized and come down a bit, but the prices are still high.

[rlilly]

Here's (http://www.synchronizedchristmaslights.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37)what I thought to be a creative solution.

[Michael]

Things to consider:

- 100amp service has 100amps on BOTH legs, giving a total of 200amps usable power for the WHOLE HOUSE. You must balance your power use on each leg.

- Get some type of amp meter to make sure your calculations are correct. Many times you will be way under on actual usage because some lights are rated higher than they actual draw. I got a Kill-A-Watt meter for about $25 delivered and that made me sleep a lot better at night knowing I was within safe limits for each circuit.

- Make sure you do not draw more power on a circuit than your breaker is rated for. Check for other devices also on that circuit before using.

- Adding a subpanel, 2 or 3, 20amp circuits, GFCI's, wire and mounting boxes should cost about $150-400 in parts, depending on distance and how fancy you want to get. I like the good quality Square D breakers, and 12-3 wire should be good for a 20 amp circuit.

- Compute cost of LED vs standard mini-lights. For me it was cheaper to get 14 strands of LED's, for each of 3 colors for my roof, than to use mini-lights. I was able to run the whole roof on 3 channels, one for each color with 14 strands of LED's on each channel, instead of 15 channels. This saved a whole controller box, lots of extension cords, and about 13 amps of power. For the rest of my display, I used mini-lights.

- Only use 1 hand at a time when dealing with high voltage, stick the other in your pocket. Assume every wire has power, even with the circuit off. Power Kills.

- Finally, if you are not sure how to do this, contact a local electrician.

[jeffathompson]

Danger Will Robinson

[Macrosill]

Ummm, no it doesn't. A 100 amp service means the entire load may not exceed 100 amps. You can draw 100 amps from one side, but then your load on the other side would need to be zero.

You should be careful about the advise you give. Please call an electrician people. I am begining to see how dangerous this can be.

Michael is correct. 100 amps is at 220v. You can not exceed 100 amps on either leg. A 100 amp service has the capacity of 100 amps on each leg, at 110v.
You still need to balance your loads.

[ben]

Michael is correct. 100 amps is at 220v. You can not exceed 100 amps on either leg. A 100 amp service has the capacity of 100 amps on each leg, at 110v.
You still need to balance your loads.

YES!! Remember the main breaker and supply coming into your house ist 220V and whatever amps. I have a 150A main breaker. there were 3 slots left in the main breaker at my house. I had 3 20A breakers put in along with the 15A from last year. I have about 200 channels planned this year. I am able to run about 217 mini light strings AT ONE TIME. Thats 217,000 lights at one time. I only plan to have 35,000 lights in the display!! See how that works?!

Ben

[omzig]

I am able to run about 217 mini light strings AT ONE TIME. Thats 217,000 lights at one time.So, where did you get the 1000-count strings Ben?

[jeffathompson]

The lawyer friend says stay out of it

[ben]

So, where did you get the 1000-count strings Ben?

Oops!! I mean 21,700!!!

Ben

[aussiephil]

Wow

This thread has so much conflicting information that it becomes scary for members to decipher truth.

A quick search in google gave me a good read from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

I found this informative as the distribution of AC power is different to Aus with it's 240v.

On of the key quotes from this article for this thread is..
Quote...
If the load were guaranteed to be balanced, then the neutral conductor would not carry any current (and so, would not be needed) and the system would be equivalent to a single ended system of twice the voltage with the live cables taking half the current.
Endquote....

Plain english interpretation.
A 200A - 240v split feed that has balanced loads will carry 400A at 120v. 200A on each leg with no current on the neutral.

Lets write that another way
240v x 200A = 48kVA
so
48kVA / 120v = 400A

I make no inference to the type or size of circuit breakers installed btw.

Now lets take Jeff's 100 + 10 example.

At 100A on on side(phase) only you have 100A on leg 1 + 100A on the neutral.
Now add 10A on the other side (phase)
you now have 100A on Leg 1
10A on Leg 2 and 90A on the Neutral.

I'd of course consider this a badly unbalanced circuit and it would be liable to trip breakers all the time.

When in doubt talk to your qualified electrician - they have been trained to do this correctly.

Aussiephil

[jeffathompson]

There is so much eronious information here that this thread should be deleted. Someone will burn their house down trying to double their load without putting in the proper service. Electronics theory does not apply to real world electricy.

CALL AN ELECTRICIAN. I HAVE DONE THI'S FOR 30 YEARS WITH AN ELECTRICIAN'S GUIDANCE AND NEVER EVEN A SPARKY SPARKY

[Macrosill]

Brian, I think you need to reread your post. You say you cannot exceed 100 amps at 220 volts, then say Michael is correct. You are right that you cannot draw more than 100 amps on either leg, and you should balance the load, but you don't have to. A 100 amp service will draw 100 amps on one side before it trips the breaker. You throw 10 amps on the other side and boom, the breaker will trip.

Michael is not correct. He is saying you can draw 200 amps on a 100 amp service. Then why don't they call it a 200 amp service?

So your saying that my 200 amp service has the capacity to provide 200 amps on each side at 110 volts for a total of 400 amps.

No, not correct. You can pull 200 amps off either side or balance the load but you cannot pull 400 amps on a 200 amp service. The neutral is the limiting factor on this.

Have we got an electrician here that can explain it better


I just got off the phone with my electrician friend.

Your calulations are correct, except for one thing. You cannot access 110 volts in the US without usiing the neutral. When you run 220, lets say at 20 amps, you run it on both line legs and the neutral has no load on it. When you run 110, you run one line and the neutral. Again lets say 20 amps. The neutal now has a 20 amp load on it. Lets go to the other line with a 20 amp load. Now the two lines have only 20 amps each, but the neutral has 40 amps. Lets increase this by X10 Your 220 Volt line now has 200 amps on each leg and no load on the neutral. Now lets x5 the 110 volt line. That's 100 amps each in the two lines, but 200 amps on the neutral. That is the limit of the service. If you try and put 200 amps on each of the 110 legs you will be loadng the neutral at 400 amps.

The limit on a 100 am service is 100 amps total load. On a 200 amp service, 200 amp total load. There is no way to make a 100 amp service provide 200 amps by changing voltages. The limit is always the highest load carrying part.

With a properly balanced service the neutral absorbs very little current. If things were 50/50 then the neutral would theoretically not be needed.

Call your friend again and ask him how I can feed 2 separate circuits utilizing a 3 conductor feed, say 12/3 with ground non-metallic sheathed cable? They are 2 separate 20 amp 120v circuits utilizing a 12 awg neutral. Now if the above quote is correct then I would not be allowed to run a multi feed cable unless it had an 8 awg neutral, unlike 12/3, in this scenario. Either way you look at it the phases split the current, thats why you need to run them on separate phases and need to balance the load.

In a lot of scenarios neutrals are smaller than the feed conductors because the load gets split between the phases, in a properly balanced configuration.

[Virtus]

Jeff,


The limit on a 100 am service is 100 amps total load. On a 200 amp service, 200 amp total load.

On this, I will concur so long as we agree that voltage remains constant.


There is no way to make a 100 amp service provide 200 amps by changing voltages.

On this one, I have to differ. The only way to make 100A service provide 200A is in fact to divide the voltage by two. The power must remain the same (V*A), but you can produce almost 1000A so long as you drop the voltage to 12VAC.

Now, that isn't really useful to the reality of the discussion...but it is true. No one wants to do this nor can you plug our standard lights into it.

[aussiephil]

I just got off the phone with my electrician friend.

Your calulations are correct, except for one thing. You cannot access 110 volts in the US without usiing the neutral. When you run 220, lets say at 20 amps, you run it on both line legs and the neutral has no load on it. When you run 110, you run one line and the neutral. Again lets say 20 amps. The neutal now has a 20 amp load on it. Lets go to the other line with a 20 amp load. Now the two lines have only 20 amps each, but the neutral has 40 amps. Lets increase this by X10 Your 220 Volt line now has 200 amps on each leg and no load on the neutral. Now lets x5 the 110 volt line. That's 100 amps each in the two lines, but 200 amps on the neutral. That is the limit of the service. If you try and put 200 amps on each of the 110 legs you will be loadng the neutral at 400 amps.

The limit on a 100 am service is 100 amps total load. On a 200 amp service, 200 amp total load. There is no way to make a 100 amp service provide 200 amps by changing voltages. The limit is always the highest load carrying part.

Jeff
My calculations are correct with no exceptions for a balanced load and even for unbalanced loads the only current carried on the neutral wire is the differential between the current draw on each 110v line.

I will qualify the scenario to be Resistive Loads like lights, all calculations will be different for inductive or capacitive loads.

Your electrician is giving you the simple view that is most appropriate for the average homeowner (like they do over here when we have 440v 3 phase power) to ensure that they remain safe and sound but it is not the complete technical truth. The scenario's may be valid for a 2 wire feed but fall apart once you get back to the three wire point.

The USA has a split 3 wire feed for exactly the reason to balance 110v resistive loads across each line to enable a reduction in the size of copper wire by effectively having a 220v distribution whilst still allowing 110v devices.

Read the wikipedia article i link to it has some nice diagrams of split resistive loads and the net current flowing on each wire.

For readers trying to make sense of the above it's like this.
Connect a 110v 1000W light across Line 1 and a 110v 1000W light across line 2 and you then have a balanced circuit.
2000w (18A) is drawn from the supply - 9A from each leg, zero amps from the neutral.

Now add a second 110v 1000W lamp to one leg.
27A is the total current draw
18A from one leg - 9A from the other with 9A flowing on the Neutral to balance the load.

Before someone points out this is 36A, it's not, the total current is the sum of the currents on the active wires.

AussiePhil

[sjwilson122]

Dont know if this helps but the way it was explained to me back when I was getting my electrical and electronic certifications was as follows;

Some people erroneously call household current 2 phase, it is actually split phase.
The transformer feeding the house is essentialy a 240 volt center tap transformer with the center tap grounded therefore creating 0 volt point, each leg carries 1/2 of the total 240 volt phase. The feeding transformer does not see the split phases seperatly, it sees each leg as half of a phase or half of its total potential. These two legs are 180 degrees out of sync. with each other (hence the term 2 phase). In totality what the tranformer sees is, as one leg goes up to its 120 volt potential the other leg goes to zero. Then as the other leg goes from 0 to 120 volt the other leg goes from 120 volts to zero. In the US this happens 60 times a second (60hz). Basically the transformer sees it as when one leg is on the other is off. The common wire never sees more than one leg at a time as carrying current. So the common wire never sees more current than each leg is rated for (200 amps typical) .
So yes you can theoretically pull 200 amps from each 120 volt leg (each being 1/2 of a full phase)and you will only pull 200 amps total from the 240 volt potential (full phase).
Using watts law I x E = watts:
200(I) x 120(E) = 24,000 watts per leg

24,000 watts x 2 (both legs) = 48,000 watts

200(I) x 240(E)(potential of both legs combined) = 48,000 watts available.

Hope this helps.

[aussiephil]

sjwilson122

Agreed

Phil

[Reddy_Kilowatt]

Last year, in one area of the display, I had 120-100ct. mini strings (40 amps worth) on a single dedicated 20A circuit. The show ran fine, as long as I made sure I had less than 50% of the strings on at one time.
Accidentally checking the Vixen “All Channels On" box during testing, is hard on things tho! :p

This year I ran another dedicated 20A circuit to the same location from the opposite 120V leg, to as they say, balance the load.
I’m still only going to run half of them at a time, (frugality) but being split up and balanced, hopefully it will cure an annoying blinky, dimy, kitchen light syndrome that happens when the show is running. :roll:

[jeffathompson]

See post, this thread should be deleted.

[sjwilson122]

Sloanhaus,

I have to agree with Jeffthompson on this, there is alot of bad info that goes around on the web. Best way to look at it is if you dont know what you are doing or are unshure, DONT MESS WITH IT! It only takes one wrong connection to ruin your world.
Most of the electricians I know charge around $400.00 for a sub panel and around $200.00 per circuit from the sub panel. With the price of copper this has or will be going up. Remember you are not just buying the electricians time, you are buying his liability if anything goes wrong.
I would only use a licensed, insured electrician that has been in business for some time. The good ones tend to stay in business, the bad ones come and go. Also don't do an under the table deal. If anything goes wrong in the future you want the invoice and paperwork to show who did the work. Alot of insurance carriers will not cover injury or damage from new work that was not inspected or done to code. The only way to prove it was is the paperwork.

[wbuehler]

Hello All

I decided to make a test rig when I got home today and make a video of the results. Hopefully this will help clear things up.

Link to video below

http://media.putfile.com/Neutral-Current-Test

[P. Short]

Not all incandescent strings draw the same amount of current. I measured the current draw of some of the Target 100ct energy-saving strings at about .17A, while many other strings are reported to be about twice this. With 120 of these 'energy-saving' strings the current draw would come to about 20A if they are all on at the same time.

And 120 channels will require a lot of time to sequence. It might be a good idea for the first year to limit the size of the display, and worry about the electrical panel next year.

YMMV.

[aussiephil]

Sloanhaus,

I have to agree with Jeffthompson on this, there is alot of bad info that goes around on the web. Best way to look at it is if you dont know what you are doing or are unshure, DONT MESS WITH IT! It only takes one wrong connection to ruin your world.
Most of the electricians I know charge around $400.00 for a sub panel and around $200.00 per circuit from the sub panel. With the price of copper this has or will be going up. Remember you are not just buying the electricians time, you are buying his liability if anything goes wrong.
I would only use a licensed, insured electrician that has been in business for some time. The good ones tend to stay in business, the bad ones come and go. Also don't do an under the table deal. If anything goes wrong in the future you want the invoice and paperwork to show who did the work. Alot of insurance carriers will not cover injury or damage from new work that was not inspected or done to code. The only way to prove it was is the paperwork.


No idea who your actually addressing but about the only thing we all seem to agree on with Jeffthompson is....

-----When in doubt talk to your qualified electrician - they have been trained to do this correctly.-----
as I said this in my first post on this topic.

Yes in the "lets sue your backside off first" USA, even if you are allowed to play, you shouldn't.

Note to Australian readers - NONE of the above discussion applies to the 240v distribution AND we are not allowed by law to work on fixed wiring.

It's obvious that some do not understand basic power voltage current calculations.
By Jeffthompson's logic a 20A 240v circuit could not supply 200A at 24V which of course it can.

I do not agree with the removal of this thread as the truth is in it along with warnings to get the electrician to do it, however Brian may consider locking it as it is obviously wandered way off course, partly my fault no doubt.

Aussiephil

[wbuehler]

Hello All

I did another small test based on a coule of requests. Again this is not a how to. Do not try this at home. This is for testing purposes only.

http://media.putfile.com/Neutral-Current-Test-Followup

Bill

[Macrosill]

Thanks for those videos Bill, aka Arnold. The proof is in the pudding.

[Wayne J]

Those videos are freaking awesome!!!!!!! I have really learned something.
Thanks Bill!!

[wbuehler]

Those videos are freaking awesome!!!!!!! I have really learned something.
Thanks Bill!!

Thanks

I hope they are of some help to everyone

Bill

[dhavard]

I am worried after reading all of this...lol I hope I do not run into any problems. I will give my specs to see if there are any suggestions or worries. Ok so our main breaker was inside our house and we bought a hot tub. We had an electrician come out and he suggested installing a separate 200A breaker outside and tying the one inside into it. We also have a circuit for the hot tub. I am not sure what I would need to check to see if I am going to run into problems. I have a total of 96 possible Ren16 channels. As of right now I have 5 arches with 10 channels each. Each channel will have 1 set of 100 lights for a total of 1000 lights per arch and a total of 5000 lights for all 5 arches. The other major thing I will have is 12 mini-trees with 2 strands per tree/channel. I will also have my normal icicle lights that I had last year and I plan to control them also. I might attempt a mega-tree but not sure that will happen. if so it will be a simple one with probably 1 strand per channel. I just want to make sure it is possible to run this without having to upgrade service. I plan on having it spread out across different circuits to distribute the load better. Just wanted to see if I am in the clear right now or if it's something I need to address. Thanks!

Daniel

[ctmal]

dhavard. I think what you need to consider is what you are actually running. Is your hot tub going to be on in december? If not, you don't count that against the amperage you're using. In general, each 100 bulb strand of mini's is about .33 amps and each set of icicle lights is about .44 amps. With that said, you want to count up what you are actually going to have on at any given moment. If that amount exceeds the amperage of your circuit breakers, then you have to do something(actually they suggest it shouldn't exceed 80% of your circuit breaker).
I hope that made sense;).

[dhavard]

Nope, not going to have it running when the lights are on. I think I will be good on what I will be running. I'll find out before long :)
daniel

[P. Short]

It very much depends on which lights you are using. If you are using Target energy-saver incandescent mini-lights or LEDs the current will not be as great as if you are using regular mini-lights (non-energy saving). There may be a 2:1 or greater uncertainty depending on which type of lights you are using.

[dhavard]

Using Lowe's brand lights...they aren't the energy saver kind. May install a couple of extra circuits to be safe.