Renard 24 v2.5 Troubleshooting..

[Superfreak3]

Hi all,

I tested the completed board I just purchased and it doesn't seem to work. The Leds light up for a while (both), but then one goes out. All channels have something going on. When Vixen fires up my sequence, I don't have power to any of the channels it seems.

Where should I start to track down the problem?

[Virtus]

Lets go in steps...
1) Have you made Vixen interface to hardware before? Are your PLUGINS setup?
2) Does the board have connections to HOT and NEUTRAL but not GROUND? This is correct...
3) Are you using a serial db9 directly or via an RS485 converter?

The board should power up with no output triacs energized. The situation shouldn't change when you connect it to Vixen, at least not until the sequence turns them ON. The LEDs should not be lit unless something (Vixen) is driving outputs 2 and 5 on PIC #1.

[joneslights]

I believe your board may have been converted to 3.0 wiring. Mine has a jumper wire coming off the rj45 connection. Might want to PM frank. I have not tested mine yet.

[Superfreak3]

Lets go in steps...
1) Have you made Vixen interface to hardware before? Are your PLUGINS setup?
2) Does the board have connections to HOT and NEUTRAL but not GROUND? This is correct...
3) Are you using a serial db9 directly or via an RS485 converter?

The board should power up with no output triacs energized. The situation shouldn't change when you connect it to Vixen, at least not until the sequence turns them ON. The LEDs should not be lit unless something (Vixen) is driving outputs 2 and 5 on PIC #1.

1) I set up my profile initially to go to COM3, but the machine I will use to run the show doesn't have COM3 so I was getting an error. I reset the serial setup in the profile to go to COM1. The PlugIns I have is the Renard Dimmer and Adjustable Preview. Is this what you mean by interfacing to the hardware?

2) Yes, Hot & Neutral, but no ground.

3) DB9 Directly.

From Joneslights' post, it Frank sent me the v2.5 wired as 3.0, the DB9 connections pinout is different I believe. Could that cause my problem.

Let me know if there is anything else I can check and I'll PM Frank.

thanks all!

Also, what is the sequence of use of Vixen - Create Profile then sequences?

[Virtus]

The attachment has the pinout for the 'standard' Renard connection which applies to the Version 3 board.

In Vixen, create a profile and then reference that profile during the CREATE SEQUENCE wizard. That seems to be the easiest way to go.

[WakeFan]

Did you change the baud rate on the com port under device manager(not in Vixen)?

[Wayne J]

The cable section of the Ren24 wiki is a bit confusing now :-?, but this is the cable setup for the 2.5 board.

http://www.doityourselfchristmas.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Ren24v25.jpg

[Superfreak3]

I have the 2.5 Pinout diagram as that is what I used. Now I'm confused as to whether the 2.5 board I received from Frank is modified for v3 or not. I have PMd him, but haven't heard back yet.

I did change the port speed changed to 57600 on the port in Device Manager with the following other settings... Data bits 8, Parity None, Stop bits 1 and Flow control None.

Until I hear from Frank, I may start at my DB9 adapter. What is the way to go about pinning two RJ45s to one DB9 pin? I soldered the the 1,2,4s together basically, but its a bit rough. Again I followed the v2.5 pinouts. The actual pin that goes into the DB9 side, can you get extras of those for the purpose of combining multiple RJ45 pins then recrimp it?

I may just go buy some DB9s tomorrow and try to successfully create one for each version of the board and try both. Would that hurt anything?

[Superfreak3]

It appears as though it is 2.5. I made a v3 DB9 connection and I get nothing out of the bank LEDs.

When I return to the 2.5 connection, it appears as though the LEDs are in sync with the program running, but absolutely no power.

I made the sequence all on for the entire clip and nothing. The only thing I can see is that it appears the fuses are jumpered so they would not have to be replaced I'm guessing.

This doesn't look good :(

[Virtus]

I'm not sure why the fuses would be jumpered- that defeats the point in having a fuse. That is a good sign in that the LEDs are in time with the sequence: cable and PIC#1 are good then.

Is there a fuse installed? Do you get continuity across the fuse clips (when not connected to AC of course)?

[kmc123]

Can you take a very close up picture of the front and back of the board for us?
That would help A LOT!!!

[Superfreak3]

Yes, I will post pics.

What might I need for testing by way of tools and/or gadgets?

[Virtus]

You won't need anything but a continuity checker. This can be the DIODE function (on a multimeter), ZERO ohms on an Ohmmeter, a homemade (battery,wire,flashlight bulb) tester. If you need to buy something I would highly recommend an AC/DC multimeter which tests resistance, voltage, and amperage at a minimum. Some pricier ones will do capacitance and inductance and temperature as well.

[RavingLunatic]

When I return to the 2.5 connection, it appears as though the LEDs are in sync with the program running, but absolutely no power.


I assume that when you say "no power" you are referring to the outputs of the Triacs. But since you say the LEDs are running then the board must be working up to a point.

Right now it appears that you have it working up to the Opto/Triac portion. I would focus on how you have your lights (or whatever you have plugged into the board for testing) hooked up.

Since the diagnostic LEDs are hooked to channels 2 & 5, focus on trying to get them to work first.

On the V2.5, the terminals are for the hot legs only of you AC lights and the neutral needs to be connected with the main neutral via a wire nut or some other method.


To see if your fuse has been by-passed, just unplug your Ren24, remove the fuses and then plug it back in. If it continues to work (as much as it has been), then the fuses have been by-passed. If it doesn't then the fuses are hooked up correctly.

[Superfreak3]

I assume that when you say "no power" you are referring to the outputs of the Triacs. But since you say the LEDs are running then the board must be working up to a point.

Right now it appears that you have it working up to the Opto/Triac portion. I would focus on how you have your lights (or whatever you have plugged into the board for testing) hooked up.

Since the diagnostic LEDs are hooked to channels 2 & 5, focus on trying to get them to work first.

On the V2.5, the terminals are for the hot legs only of you AC lights and the neutral needs to be connected with the main neutral via a wire nut or some other method.

To see if your fuse has been by-passed, just unplug your Ren24, remove the fuses and then plug it back in. If it continues to work (as much as it has been), then the fuses have been by-passed. If it doesn't then the fuses are hooked up correctly.

Yes, I'm referring to the channel outputs.

Ah, work with channels 2 and 5, that's helpful! Thanks for that little tidbit.

The way I'm testing is simply a single string of lights plugged into the various outputs. I have all channels basically all on and I simply move the lights from channel to channel to test while the sequence is running.

I don't know if I can remove the fuses since Frank appears to have jumpered them as to not remove the fuses. it does appear that one if not both of them are blown though so this might be the problem.

On all terminals I have the hots while the neutrals are all connected to a neutral bar. This is not connected to the main power neutral in any way at this point. Could that be the problem?

Are the fuses only used for the outputs are they involved in board LEDs functioning as well?

I will post several pictures momentarily.

[Virtus]

Try tying the board neutral and the neutral bar for the loads together (same circuit) and see if that changes the experience. I'm thinking that it very well may.

[RavingLunatic]

On all terminals I have the hots while the neutrals are all connected to a neutral bar. This is not connected to the main power neutral in any way at this point. Could that be the problem?


You need the neutrals for the lights to be also connected to the neutral for the incoming AC voltage. Without it you get no current flow. Run a jumper from the terminal that has the neutral down to your neutral bar. I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly get blinky-flashy.




Are the fuses only used for the outputs are they involved in board LEDs functioning as well?


The left fuse also provides power to the transformer which supplies voltage to the rectifier and regulator to make the 5 VDC. So you must be getting power from the left side since your board is working (somewhat).

[Superfreak3]

While I was running through some of the troubleshooting tips, I realized that I must do as you say and tie the main neutral to the neutral bar or no current. Duh! I'm a moron.

I just used the same type wire from the main power cable neutral and jumpered it to the bar, is that OK or does it need a heavier gauge wire to handle the load?

I just didn't see the blinky flashy and started to panic instead of thinking things through.

I'm soooo sorry for wasting time, but I Greatly appreciate all the help.

I started to disconnect the board from the heatsink and was wondering if I needed to reapply the heatsink compound or if I'm OK to just screw it back together. ???

This is one Great site I'll tell you that!

[Virtus]

This is one Great site I'll tell you that!

We all take turns...just remember this experience when the next guy has a frustrating situation and you'll find a way to walk him through it, too.

It is great to be be able to bounce ideas off others to help narrow down the possibilities.

[Superfreak3]

I'm quite a ways from being able to help anyone, but when I get there, I will surely be as generous as you and others on this site.

What about the heatsink compound...should I reapply or am I OK just connecting the board back to the heatsink with the first application of compound?

Also, is the neutral wire I used from the main to the bar OK or should I use a heavier gauge?

THANKS AGAIN!

Now I get to plan the layout and work on the sequences!!

[Wayne J]

I personally would use a heavier wire, keep in mind that that wire could possibly carry close to 24 amps.

The heatsink compound...... check to see if it is dry, if so, re-apply.

[Virtus]

If the compound is still 'wet' you can re-center it so it will spread again when tightening and top-off any that can't be recovered.

The NEUTRAL between the board and the bar need not be any larger gauge than the HOT to the board as it is carrying the same current load.

**Wayne, you beat me by a minute!**

[Macrosill]

12 awg conductors is the largest you would need, unless you are feeding the Ren 24 with a 30 amp dedicated circuit. Otherwise a 20 amp circuit is the largest you would use to feed the board.
The fuses on the Ren24 is another factor that may allow a smaller awg conductor.

[Superfreak3]

So, if I used a pice of the neutral wire from the main power cable, that would be sufficient as my tie-in to the neutral bar? That's the way it sounds or should I use a piece of the hot wire from the same main power cable instead (if that is a higher gauge)?

I'm thinking of having a dedicated breaker for the board. Does that change things? I have a heatsink so I guess the max for the v2.5 board is 30 AMPs. I'm not thinking I will go that full load this year as my starter display will be fairly small. It looks like I should get a 30-40 amp breaker for this, right?

[Macrosill]

I would not advise anything above a 20 amp circuit.

1. I do not think the board itself is designed for a 30 amp feed or higher.
2. You would need to run 10awg cable to feed the board at 30 amps.
3. You would need a 30 amp 120v NEMA certified receptacle along with a matching male plug and 10 awg sj cord.
4. Any idea how expensive a 30 amp 120v GFCI breaker costs? I hoep you have deep pockets, as far as breakers go.
5. You can not feed trough 30 amps on a standard 20 amp GFCI receptacle.


Peopel have to understand, just because we use 8 amps triacs, or the like, does not mean you can run 8 amps on every channel. The triac is not the deciding factor for total power consumption.

As someone with an extensive electrical background I have a suggestion for everyone. Do not plan your display using anything more than standard 20 amp GFCI protected circuits. If you have a 100,000 channel Renard board that has 8 amp triacs do not plan on supplying 800,000 amps to it. Base everything on 20 amp circuits at the most! If you need more than 20 amps add another circuit. This may require a second controller or more ssrs but it is cheaper, safer and easier in the long run.

[omzig]

I agree that if you need more than one 20A circuit for a Ren24, you're probably better off splitting it up. 30A would be around 6000 minis! I think where Superfreak is coming from is that the silkscreen on the board does say 30A max per board.

IMO, if you were to insist on pushing it to 30A, you would be better off using two 15A circuits; one for each side of the board. You could actually do this with a shared neutral, but it's very important if you do this, that the two hots do not come from the same leg of your electrical service. If one hot comes from one leg and the other from the other leg, the neutral will only carry the difference of the total current from each side. Extreme caution needs to be taken with this setup though because there is 240V of potential between the two hots!
http://www.ksmiths.com/blinkyflashy/electro.gif

[Macrosill]

9000 minis, 90 sets of 100, would be just under 30 amps, 29.7 actually if they all draw .33 amps per 100. This is a over estimate of current draw per set of 100 minis, most report lower draws these days.
Using the same formula 6000 minis, 60 sets of 100, would draw about 19.8 amps at .33 per 100.

The shared neutral gets confusing to some people with less electrical knowledge so I do not suggest it often but you are spot on with your explanation Don.

If someone wants to get confused a little bit more look at a 3-way switch and/or add some 4-way switches in there. I find them simple and easy as I have worked with them for years but it can be very difficult for someone to understand them. Especially when you add in the different ways to bring in the feed, at the light, at the switch then where does the switch leg come from, then you can bring the 3 conductor cable from switch to switch or break it at the light. Now when you put white wires on a switch for a common and the the light gets hooked up to 2 white wires, one with a peice of black tape on it, they really ponder. Or explain travellers and commons. On and on we go. All that for 2 switches to turn on a single light.

[Superfreak3]

My display is not very big at all as I only have several 100 light strings of lights, about 18 blowmolds that will be illuminated with 40 watt bulbs (One or two of them may be lit with a 60 watt bulb.), 21 20-light mini trees and possibly 6 or 7 100 watt floods. I'm just getting my feet wet so nothing too huge in '08.

I'm thinking/hoping that the Ren 24 will handle the load without too much trouble. I haven't figured all the loads on paper yet, but I would guess I would need a dedicated breaker for it.

Taking into account the recent comments in this thread, should I plan on staying around the 20-24 amp range? If I go >20 AMPs are we talking the need for another dedicated circuit?

I don't know that all the lights will be on at any one time so I could orchestrate the 'show' so that I don't exceed 20 AMPS at any one time.

I guess I should start by figuring the power draws for all of the elements of my display then arrange them into the channels. I'll aim for 10-12 AMPS/side.

Feel free to let me know if this sounds like a plan or if I'm going down the wrong path of being too power restrictive (shooting for the 20 AMP range) or if I'm in danger of blowing something up!

Thanks for all of the information. One really does learn a thing or two here! :D

[Macrosill]

...

Taking into account the recent comments in this thread, should I plan on staying around the 20-24 amp range? If I go >20 AMPs are we talking the need for another dedicated circuit?


Yes!




I don't know that all the lights will be on at any one time so I could orchestrate the 'show' so that I don't exceed 20 AMPS at any one time.


That's a smart and efficient way to utilize your hardware.




I guess I should start by figuring the power draws for all of the elements of my display then arrange them into the channels. I'll aim for 10-12 AMPS/side.
...


That sounds like a sound plan of attack.

[omzig]

9000 minis, 90 sets of 100, would be just under 30 amps, 29.7 actually if they all draw .33 amps per 100. This is a over estimate of current draw per set of 100 minis, most report lower draws these days.
Using the same formula 6000 minis, 60 sets of 100, would draw about 19.8 amps at .33 per 100.That's what I get for figuring it in my head.


The shared neutral gets confusing to some people with less electrical knowledge so I do not suggest it often but you are spot on with your explanation Don.If someone was not comfortable with shared neutrals, they still could use separate circuits for each side of the board with separate neutrals. This would especially easy on the version 2.5 board, since the neutrals are connected off-board anyway.


If someone wants to get confused a little bit more look at a 3-way switch and/or add some 4-way switches in there. I find them simple and easy as I have worked with them for years but it can be very difficult for someone to understand them. Especially when you add in the different ways to bring in the feed, at the light, at the switch then where does the switch leg come from, then you can bring the 3 conductor cable from switch to switch or break it at the light. Now when you put white wires on a switch for a common and the the light gets hooked up to 2 white wires, one with a peice of black tape on it, they really ponder. Or explain travellers and commons. On and on we go. All that for 2 switches to turn on a single light.I think it's easier to wire 3-way switches when you actually understand how they work, instead of memorizing connections like some try to do. A 3-way switch is really just a single-pole, double-throw switch. A four way is a little different; four terminals that are connected in a criss-cross fashion; the connections are swapped when the switch is thrown. A 3-way on each end and as many 4-ways as you want in the middle...Oops were way off-topic now...Oh well, you started it :p

[Superfreak3]

Since the diagnostic LEDs are hooked to channels 2 & 5, focus on trying to get them to work first.

I would have thought that the LEDs were set up one per side.

Just to be sure, is the board divided in sides left and right as the main power connection is closest to you? That would be Channels 1-12 on the left side and 13-24 on the right.

I want to be sure I have this right as I'm figuring all my power requirements and I want to go 10 amps max per side.

Thanks in advance!!