NEC code- Would any of this pass.

[cmurray]

My wife had a visitor yesterday.
An official from the city told her that
1 My tune to radio sign wich was 2 x 4 ft was too large it can only be 6sq ft.
2 It was too close to the street, it would have to move.
3 My flag was within 20 ft of the street (the cities property) it would have to move.
4. A wishing well that has existed for 9 years was also too close to the street and will need to be torn down by first frost.
5 I dont think he liked the entension cord running thru the expansion joint in the driveway.
6 He made some comment about the display or the wireing thereof needing a $10 permit and inspection unless it was 12volt. My wife did not know or lied and said there must be transformers in those boxes.

My wife called me at work to inform me of these infractions and I have not been able to think straight or even sleep since.

The sign and the flag are down and stored away. They came very close to being in a heap at the curb.

I know that Phil and Earnie are experts in the control aspect. Without them these boards would not exist.
Jeff recently stated his qualifications in another post so I know that there are at least three and probably more "experts" on this board that can speak to this topic.

Lets see who else does this or worse.
1 My boards are point to point solderded
2 From a design I found off the internet.
3 Using heatsinks of questionable design and untested capacity.
4 Stuffing the board and 14 wires into a dual receptical box that can at most hold 10.
5 Lacking approved restraint for wires exiting said box.
6 Said box may or may not be adequately water resistant after alterations.
7 Using indoor lamp cord for final plug ins that is not rated as exterior.
8 That has only two conductors with no ground.
9 Has tripple taps on the end not capped or allowed for exterior use.
10 Being controlled by RJ12 or CAT5 cable not rated for exterior use.
11 Controlling lights of questionable origin with counterfit or removed UL approved stickers.

How far is what we are doing outside the NEC code and what authority does a city inspector have for a temporary display on private property by a private individual? The city code said they follow NEC. With no relevalt exceptions.

Would anything we do have a snowballs chance in Miami of passing any kind of inspection?

I will not go out and spend $2500 for 128 channels of preassembeled UL approved LOR.

joel

Ignorance may be bliss but at this time I need to know what my real options are.

If this topic causes too many sparks we can always have Brian delete it and disavow any knowledge that it ever existed.

[P. Short]

This is mostly beyond what I know about or have experience with.

I would do two things:

1) post the question over at pc, there are a lot of people with experience dealing with inspectors.

2) go to the bookstore or library, and read up on the NEC. There is a special section on temporary setups, with significantly relaxed rules.

What caused the inspector to even go to your house? Did a neighbor complain, is construction too slow in your area, or what?

--

Phil

[wjohn]

Was the inspector's name Scrooge McDuck?

and did he waddle as he walked?

[fkostyun]

That would be my concern also - is that you have a crabby neighbor. I would look into the requirements for temporary installations (hint - new construction requirements might be an area to look at)

You may also consider having a "temporary" subpanel - that way the entire display is temporary (get the $10 permit for the subpanel)

I am going to dual temporary subpanels this year - should make life much easier.

[Ronp]

I know nothing about the code but found this witch just gives me a cloudy idea of what we are suposed to do


http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_document.asp
70-480 article 590

[cmurray]

I plan on pulling 30 amps max off of three seperate circuits this year so I dont think subpannels would be an issue.
I think he was more interested in the little boxes that contained the parts that contain the magic smoke.

Actually it was the light at the end of the tunnel that started all this.

The elementary school SE of us decided that additional parking lot was more important than playground. The exit will connect to our street.
I thought great more places for people to park and watch my lights.:D

I think they were out checking the the work on the parking lot and road when the noticed me. :evil:

Other than this latest setback you can see I have no real neighbors.
Beanfield to the south. Vacant Backyard across the way and a school playground to the SE.
Not many people to complain and lots of room for cars.

Found this link. Article 527 covers "Temporary Installations" and "Holiday Lighting"

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/TemporaryInstallations~20021210.htm


joel

[Ronp]

There is a exception to the code for holiday lighting
You can do this with out lights
("you can use trees or other vegetation for support of overhead spans of branch circuits or feeders")
70-480 article 590B

[fkostyun]

One thing to look at is this - NEC states that "all ungrounded circuit connectors must have a disconnect means" - so - put all your lights on their own breker.

I will do "temporary" subpanels - and run everything off of that.

[Jeff Millard]

I think they were out checking the the work on the parking lot and road when the noticed me.

Yep, same thng happened here when I was building a "slightly enlarged" fence. They just happened to be here due to a complaint of a neighbor's boat sticking out over the sidewalk. I recieved a certified stop work notice in the mail two days later. But that's a topic for another thread...

The first question I have for you is have you recieved any written contact from the inspector, or was it all verbal? Second question, have you in turn tried to contact them and get written direction of the guidelines? I can find no "National" indication that there is a requirement for permitting "anything over 12 volts" However that doesn't mean there isn't a local code that could be used to control your use of Lights. Some of the Owner's Association's involvement with this our hobby are analogous with the Nazi Party. (Womack, if you stumble across this, you can rest assured that I'm thinking about you right now!)

For the most part, the design and use of these items we make to control our lights fall under the "Temporary" guidelines of the electric codes and are not subject to permitting and inspection. Your signs and Well on the other hand probably are.

The best way for you to proceed, is to interact with the inspector/permitting dept. and learn what the actual requirements are. Get it in writing. If you know a licensed electrician from your town, talk to them and find out what passes and what doesn't.

Here at my house, if you plug it in to an outlet and it's intended use is temporary seasonal decorative lighting it is not subject to permitting and inspection. That doesn't preclude you from the liability aspects of a dangerous installation.

Most of the time the inspectors will be pleased that you are concerned enough about it to ask questions and get guidelines. Luckily, I have never suffered a bad interaction with one. But I think you'll find that if they've taken the first step to discuss things they believe are in violation you really need to look closer at the guidelines before proceeding. Don't ignore them as some can be pretty tough (The name Dennis Rader is a worst case scenario)

As for the thought of using UL approved lighting control to alleviate this issue... LOR's showtime products are their only UL approved items. The hobbiest and kits aren't. I have about $2500 wrapped up in them and none of it is. If any of it had to be inspected, I might be able to get it to pass as I have a good working relationship with the inspector and he has been positive about my work in the past. But I really wouldn't want him to see it if he didn't have to...

Jeff

[cmurray]

Nothing was official only verbal.
First they claim the the city is attemptimg to reclaim the green space. No structures(a collection of parts assembeled in an organised manner), shrubs(woodey perenial vegetation less than 6ft tall at maturety), or evergreens in the space 18ft from the curb. I happen to be four feet over. I asked when they are going to get rid of all the brick mailboxes and he said they are working on it. I reminded him that new houses have gone in less than a year ago that have brick mailboxes. He said they are working on it and the process is to ask three times before the city takes any action. The first one was not official so I am ignoring it.

On to the electrical issue. The second guy was the former electrical inspector and when he saw electrical outlet boxes in open air he thought that he had something to look into.
Remember this phrase, it is a catch 22 for us. Plug Connected Portable Appliance.

It has been too long ago but chapter 720 or 721 comes to mind that the NEC has no juristiction over plug connected appliances except thier manufacture.
And now the catch. A licensed electrician shall not install any device that has not been UL or CSA approved.

So a homeowner can do anything they want as long as it plugs in and is not hardwired into the electrical system. If the grass catches on fire under the snow I might have a few problems with my insurance company tho.
But cities, city sponsered displays, or amusment parks which must have an electrician on hand to do something as mundane as plug in a plug are forbidden and can not use any non approved devices. That would mean only showtime cards already in boxes with all cords pre attached are the only UL approved alternative at this time.

I had already purchased a spool of #12 wire and had intended on extending two outlets each already on seperate circuits to the front of the house to have additional capacity available.
But my little conversation has caused me to see the error of my ways and I will now be running 50ft extension cords from those outlets thu the crawl space to the front of the house because it is safer. :D :D (extreme sarcasm added)

My sign was 2x4ft. I have not decided if I am going to cut it down in size yet. My first was construced of a sheet of clear celing pannel(only $5) with the diamond diffuser pattern with all but the words painted on the back and then backlit. It was visable during the day.
Plan B is to do the same, only use a white pannel instead of clear.
It it works as intended it will only be lit for thirty seconds between songs and when not lit it will only be a white sheet that neigther draws attention to itself nor anything else(the definition of a sign) since it has no message

Am I still POd, only slightly.
Did they PO the wrong person, that is yet to be seen.

J

[DynamoBen]

My background is in theatrical and concert lighting. When I setup a show (indoors or outdoors) I regularly run high power cables all over the place. In fact several of the cables running along the ground aren’t protected from the weather and are running 3-phase 400 amps.

Because of this I've been harassed by local inspectors in the past making demands and trying to make me make changes. The key is to tell me it’s a "temporary installation." This makes any high voltage codes exempt, these codes only apply in a permanent installation.

This applies equally to outdoor and indoor temporary installations. I had an inspector bust my chops about a 200 amp power distribution panel I had running along an isle and propped against a wall in a theater. He had been there several times over a 3 year span and it was always hooked up with stuff plugged into it. He kept saying that because it still was there it wasn't temporary and was a violation of local codes. What got me off the hook was I could quickly disconnect the panel and move it if I needed to, which makes it temporary not permanent.

At the end of the day local codes to do change but I have been to multiple states and municipalities and never had an issue if I say it’s a “temporary installation.” Hope this helps.

[buck]

Here's some useful information.

http://www.ul.com/about/otm/labdata.htm

[xmus]

When I first began exploring this hobby at CC, I was shocked at some of the enclosures and methods used. For example some things screwed to wood terrifies me. And the idea of putting a 4 channel SSR board in the bottom of a electrical box designed to be in a dry environment (in a wall), with normal indoor receptacle covers (I saw some pictures of single or double ivory plastic switch plate covers doubled up, like overlapping) I thought to myself “if my kids come up to that with a stick, finger, screwdriver, toy, etc, they might die. I also thought about snow, puddles, rain, mud, etc… I could see how a heavy ran, or a fast thaw might cause some standing water in the enclosure…. Not to mention that stuff just wasn’t designed to be used that way in the first place. For example, look at the back of a receptacle, the way those little plastic tabs just bend (or break) out of the way for the Romex…. Not to mention Romex running around over ground (and folks tend to buy the indoor rated Romex because it is a bit cheaper…). Sometimes I almost fall over when reviewing the CC front page pictures when I visit the site.

Also, the indoor extension cords that I’ve seen heavily used are scary. They say right on them “indoor use only”…plus, if you only use one or two of the jacks, that leaves a couple of holes open for kids, dogs, bugs, rain, etc.

For plugs, a local friend showed me these,
http://actionlighting.com/item-detail.asp?ID=1394&MainCategory=&Sub=
These are rated for outdoor use. They install REALLY fast (no screws, not soldering, just snip, snip, spread, push, slide (15 seconds)). And they are cheaper than even the cheap indoor cords….. I make custom extension cords with these…..for all over the place.


And I use SPT1 wire which is outdoor rated up to 7AMPs I believe, if you want more power use SPT2. (you can get it in green, I’m just linking the white because green is out of stock so the link didn’t work)
http://actionlighting.com/item-detail.asp?ID=1413&MainCategory=&Sub=

The SPT system does have polarity, the wire has ridges to indicate the white wire, and you follow the instructions to make the ends so they obey polarity…(not that it matters with Christmas lights that are generally not bladed). None-the-less attention to polarity, and the ability to express to an inspector all the steps you took to be safe, is helpful.

Next I use GFI’s on the house, and GFI’s in each enclosure and a Orbit water master enclosure:
http://www.christmasinshirley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=704
The advantages are:
1) lockable case (dogs/kids/theft)
2) On the GFI, if you press the black button, it shuts off the power, for fast maintenance without unplugging.
3) GFI safety
4) It looks clean / professional
5) It is UL listed for outdoor use with 120/220VAC.
6) Waterproof when installed “this side up”
7) Even kids with a long screwdriver up the bottom wire holes can’t connect to AC power (or DC) because of the design of the box. The box has 2 layers, the holes are on the “lower” layer, the controller is on the upper shelf.
8) By screwing these onto the base of a tree, or wall, you eliminate the standing water issues.


One of the many reasons I chose to make the XMUS board was because it requires 1 enclosure for 16 channels, so I could justify buying higher quality UL listed waterproof enclosures. Thus I felt I could justify the more expensive enclosure.


I’m not saying that my setup is better than others, I’ve seen MUCH bigger, fancier, cooler, (Wayne James you rock, your 595 case is incredible, David Caffey has amazing stuff as well, Ernie Horning as well, Tony Eberle, Frank Kostyun has a very safe implementation of the 4 channel SSR boards (And dozens of others)) stuff, that is perfectly safe. You could use Renard, or any other design perfectly safely, so this isn’t even a design question. They are all really good, I’m just saying, that I’ve made an effort to buy UL listed stuff that is outdoor rated, and make my stuff look safe, and make it safe for my kids and dogs, and frankly, another goal was to make it look semi professional so nobody freaks out when they look at it. And I was willing to spend just a little extra for the above requirements.

Well this is where I could really offend some folks, and I don’t overtly mean to make anyone angry, but these types of setups worry me:

http://computerchristmas.com/index.php?link=photos&PhotoOwner=dlaw&PhotoCat=200&FullSize=true&Id=447

http://computerchristmas.com/christmas/link-photos/PhotoOwner-guins6866/PhotoCat-30

Well I hope I didn’t make to many enemies with this post…

[DynamoBen]

I see your point, but in a way it’s overly cautious. The indoor rating is given by UL, which is usually determined by the manufacturer. An outdoor rated cable has to pass an additional series of tests that most manufacturers aren't willing to "pay for." In the end there is very little difference between “indoor” and “outdoor” rated cables. What scares me about your zip line approach is the low current rating (7A) and the fact that zip line isn't very durable. Zip line is normally used for short lamp cables. Personally I used 20A extension cords which is very resilient, and well suited for outdoor TEMPORARY use. In all honesty the actual Christmas light strings are more of a risk than the extension cords leading to them.

I agree with the GFI outlets, and I would do the same. This increases the cost of the setup but in the winter, where I live, we get a fair amount of snow. Which we all know is frozen water. ZAP!

As far as exposed setups screwed to wood, the only real risk is someone touching it. Sure if you have kids this may not be the best option for you. However from an electrical stand point mounting to wood is great, because wood is an excellent insulator. If you make a mistake or a wire is exposed in a metal box you get...BOOM.

Sure a water proof box is better than a Raco back box, but if you truly are concerned that you should keep the controller/dimmer inside and only run extensions to the yard. That is the safest way, and the way I do it. If you keep everything inside then all you need is GFI on the outputs and you are done. Personally I've never been a fan of putting electronics outside, mostly because of moisture but also temperature. Some electronic components aren't designed to run at the low temps that occur in my area.

In the end to each his own. There are always 5 ways to accomplish a task, each persons background and situation will impact there choices. I think the biggest thing that impacts choices here is money. A Tupperware container is cheaper than a commercial outdoor rated box. Will the Tupperware contain limit the electronics from exposure…sure. Is it the best solution to the problem…that’s debatable.

[P. Short]

The other risk that seems to be ignored is that of fire, which is why I don't think that mounting things on wood is a good idea. Overheating wire (or other components) is more likely to start an unconstrained fire when they are mounted on wood than in a fire-resistant enclosure. Sparks from a bad connection or an overheating connection is also more likely to escalate to a major problem if the connection points are in the open near a wood panel.

--

Phil

[xmus]

The other risk that seems to be ignored is that of fire, which is why I don't think that mounting things on wood is a good idea. Overheating wire (or other components) is more likely to start an unconstrained fire when they are mounted on wood than in a fire-resistant enclosure. Sparks from a bad connection or an overheating connection is also more likely to escalate to a major problem if the connection points are in the open near a wood panel.

--

Phil

I agree, and did you see the 3 gas cans in the bottom picture?
http://computerchristmas.com/christmas/link-photos/PhotoOwner-guins6866/PhotoCat-30
Relays (unless they are intrinsically safe) can produce an arc....
Or say a very small fire if one fails or whatever....

[xmus]

... but in a way it’s overly cautious.

Thanks for the compliment.

But wait, there's more! :)
http://www.christmasinshirley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5736#5736

[wbuehler]

XMUS

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I like your ideals for installs I would like to ask if you have an opinion on the Bazooka for the SSR's? My plan is to keep the Controller (Grinch) on the porch in the same water tight box with the GFI that you listed and only run the Cat 5 and power cables to the Bazookas

Thanks

Bill

[xmus]

SSR's would work fine in the bazooka... I think others have already proven the SSR PCB will fit in a 4" PVC tube.... and have done some interesting designs putting the receptacle on the bottom, facing down.

Well Bill Ad invented the "xmus tube", which simply made a little longer and called it the bazooka.
1) there is no space for a GFI in the tube or bazooka, so you will require up stream.
2) As long as it is mounted vertically, moisture can't get in, just like the watermaster enclosure, there are holes at the bottom for wire to come out... no difference there. Just make sure someone cant poke their finger up the hole and immediately contact 120VAC. Also make sure the hole isn't oversize.
3) no lock and key on the tubes, so i use a rivet in the cap to body, and a screw from body to base. So it requires a Philip screw driver to disassemble. Keeps dogs/kids out.
4) Mount them up high so standing water/snow/etc doesn't creep in.
5) I use 3 tubes in my yard (find my profile picture gallery) mounted to trees, and I use one bazooka for my mega tree. They are high and dry out in the elements, and they are safe with gfi's and fuses everywhere (house fuse, every 8 channels has a fuse, and individual strands of lights have a fuse).

My opinion.

[wbuehler]

I agree

Thanks for the information, I also like to use fuses better to have them and not need than to not have them and ... :shock: ...