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View Full Version : HLS and Video - Need your input



JHinkle
10-15-2012, 02:12 PM
I am considering having HLS work with video.

I suspect there are many ways to do it ... so I am looking at doing it once that will support the most number of users.

Does any know the mechanics behind how Light-O-Rama works with video?

What are your thoughts on using VLS (videolan.org)?

Please provide your thoughts and comments so I can make the best decision on moving forward.

Thanks.

Joe

jduawa
10-15-2012, 02:30 PM
Hello,
as we discussed, the idea behind my vixen plugin was to have VLC running on either the show pc or a pc near the projector and vixen would send an http request to the "projector" pc to tell it which item in the playlist to play. Problem with this is if the show and projector pc are not the same then you need to have the playlist on both pc's and there was flakiness in my plugin where the video would only play when told to appx 75% of the time.
Thanks

budude
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Issues aside, this sounds like the way to go - it's more than likely that you would put your video projector PC away from the show computer. VLC is a great tool and runs on many platforms. My projector support WiFi connections as well but I don't know if I can stream directly to it or not...

mrpackethead
10-15-2012, 03:17 PM
You guys could consider using a Raspberry PI, and trigger it via DMX/E1.31 etc... Video file lives on the Rasbperry PI, its got an HDMI output which is pretty useful for most things.. This is exactly what i'm doing in my show this year.. I made a post about it a week or so ago. Works not so different from VLC either.

http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?22092-Art-net-E1-31-DMX-controlled-Video-Audio-player-using-Rasbperry-PI&highlight=raspberry

XmasInGalt
10-15-2012, 03:50 PM
I'm keenly interested in playing video with my sequence but couldn't find a way to launch the video and have it sync with the audio & sequence. I played with launching VLC locally and on a remote PC (Virtual Santa) from Vixen. In those cases where the video needs to sync with the audio / sequence, how could that be accomplished? Thanks.

OriginalHotrodder
10-15-2012, 04:05 PM
I've been using VLC for many years and it only gets better and better. Because of it's ability to play most any type of video file and the fact that it's freeware I think it would be an excellent choice.

angus40
10-15-2012, 04:07 PM
This would be awesome , i would like to run the Santa in the window from a projector and trigger it in hls .

I hope to edit the video and have it fade in and fade out at certain times in a sequence .

Ps the Santa in the video could use an updated routine and an HD version would be great also . hint Daryl !

JHinkle
10-15-2012, 04:17 PM
Here are my thoughts - you are welcome to challenge them or make alternate suggestions.

I would take your video and extract the audio track so that sequencing within HLS could be accomplish.

For the Show or "Play Output", VLC would/could be running on a remote computer driving your projector.

VLC would be commanded to play a specific file via a Ethernet based command (not saying just which one yet).

In your HLS sequence - you would have a NEW command that would be placed on an HLS Trigger channel.

The new command would have a "Delay" audio processing argument which would cause HLS to delay processing any audio until that amount of time expired.

The idea is that there is some amount of delay between issuing an Ethernet based command to VLC and the video to actually start playing.

If that delay was consistent to a few millisecs - then you could achieve synchronization between audio on HLS and video on VLC.

The same Trigger command could be used to play multiple videos within a single sequence.

That is my current direction - anyone have any detours they want to throw up?

Joe

angus40
10-15-2012, 04:22 PM
would users have the ability to just roll the video without the sound also ?

JHinkle
10-15-2012, 04:24 PM
I just perfected "No Audio" control of HLS - coming in next release --- so the answer is yes.

Joe

jduawa
10-15-2012, 04:32 PM
would users have the ability to just roll the video without the sound also ?

I guess to expand on this would you have the option to use a different audio track than the audio on the video.
For instance in my Thriller video i had to edit the video to match the time of my Thriller MP3, so the audio in the video does not match the audio in the mp3, but i would want to use the audio in the mp3 and just have the video play. It sounds like this would be possible.
Thanks

angus40
10-15-2012, 04:32 PM
Unreal , Joe if you get the matrix ability done i won't need a topper on my tree . i will scroll your picture on top :) .

Your a star Joe .

Can't thank you enough for all you have done to get novices like myself

the ability to achieve this level of light control .

Cheers

JHinkle
10-15-2012, 04:35 PM
I guess to expand on this would you have the option to use a different audio track than the audio on the video.
For instance in my Thriller video i had to edit the video to match the time of my Thriller MP3, so the audio in the video does not match the audio in the mp3, but i would want to use the audio in the mp3 and just have the video play. It sounds like this would be possible.
Thanks

YES to your statement - you just would not have lights synchronized to the mouth movements to unheard video audio.


What I was suggesting was NOT to edit the video - use the video's audio and sequence to that.

Joe

angus40
10-15-2012, 04:56 PM
Some video will not require sequencing though . it will server as a back ground element only.

so the abilty to choose to sequence or not would be great .

but as alway we want the best of both worlds .

tfischer
10-15-2012, 06:43 PM
To answer your original question, LOR uses Windows Media Player to handle video (and audio).

jduawa
10-15-2012, 07:42 PM
To answer your original question, LOR uses Windows Media Player to handle video (and audio).

So with LOR, does that mean the projector needs to be connected to the show pc? or can it trigger a video running on another pc?
thanks

kingofkya
10-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Just for simplicity are there windows hocks for windows medial player?
or you can just use the exe triggers to trigger video on a remote system? OR via a simple tcp or udp socket, that works the same way.*


FYI vlc has a http control interface it would be trivial to talk to.
http://www.videolan.org/doc/vlc-user-guide/en/ch05.html

Also just thinking out loud here i think you have a severe case of feature creep.:)

angus40
10-15-2012, 09:28 PM
Just for simplicity are there windows hocks for windows medial player?
or you can just use the exe triggers to trigger video on a remote system? OR via a simple tcp or udp socket, that works the same way.*


FYI vlc has a http control interface it would be trivial to talk to.
http://www.videolan.org/doc/vlc-user-guide/en/ch05.html

Also just thinking out loud here i think you have a severe case of feature creep.:)

no need to worry , i have a sequence that stress tests Hls to try and break it .

jduawa
10-15-2012, 09:39 PM
Just for simplicity are there windows hocks for windows medial player?
or you can just use the exe triggers to trigger video on a remote system? OR via a simple tcp or udp socket, that works the same way.*


FYI vlc has a http control interface it would be trivial to talk to.
http://www.videolan.org/doc/vlc-user-guide/en/ch05.html

Also just thinking out loud here i think you have a severe case of feature creep.:)

The VLC http interface seems to work well when using it through a browser but I have been having issues getting it to work consistently in my vixen plugin. I guess the hope for HLS is to make an easy to use interface for playing video. Sure there are others ways to do it but an easy to use interface would be ideal

budude
10-15-2012, 09:54 PM
Definitely do not want to use Windows Media Player/Server - not a hit on Windows just better to stay with something that supports multiple platforms... The PI as a platform is interesting as well - if not OLA then VLC might be made to work with it - I'm sure someone is/has figured it out already...

tfischer
10-15-2012, 10:39 PM
So with LOR, does that mean the projector needs to be connected to the show pc? or can it trigger a video running on another pc?
thanks

The projector is typically connected to a second monitor port on the show pc (although it can be done with a single monitor.

kingofkya
10-16-2012, 12:02 AM
The VLC http interface seems to work well when using it through a browser but I have been having issues getting it to work consistently in my vixen plugin. I guess the hope for HLS is to make an easy to use interface for playing video. Sure there are others ways to do it but an easy to use interface would be ideal

Strange i have never had a issue calling it from my scripts.
Try out wireshark it can be an invaluable tool.

mrpackethead
10-16-2012, 12:03 AM
Definitely do not want to use Windows Media Player/Server - not a hit on Windows just better to stay with something that supports multiple platforms... The PI as a platform is interesting as well - if not OLA then VLC might be made to work with it - I'm sure someone is/has figured it out already...

VLC has'nt been ported to to The PI as far as i know.. Its somethign to do with unlocking the hardware codecs.. I'm using omxplayer.. OLA is only providing a connector to trigger it, via Artnet in my case ( could be E1.31 or DMX ) in your case.

timon
10-16-2012, 12:18 AM
I like Mr P's plan in the is using standards. At the same time the raspberry is cheap compadre to using a PC. Mr. P, are you going to open source your project? If so it sounds link the way to go. If done right you could trigger multiple videos.

budude
10-16-2012, 12:25 AM
After a bit of googling, it appears it has been ported but doesn't support the HW accelerator so it would probably be slow. Word is it might work soon though - hmm.... interesting...

kingofkya
10-16-2012, 12:32 AM
well vlc is just a front end to ffmpeg so support shouldn't be too big of a stretch. To get support.

Also guys just a fyi you can get celleron or older atoms fairly cheap. Now a days.
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/4966994704465358835?q=intel%20micro%20itx&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS459US459&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=e8fcf74561e16f59&bpcl=35277026&biw=1920&bih=979&tch=1&ech=1&psi=JuN8UIrjKabAigKn_IDoDw.1350361973299.7&sa=X&ei=reN8UIHRK4nMigKCvYCIAg&ved=0CGAQ8wIwAA

mrpackethead
10-16-2012, 02:50 AM
I like Mr P's plan in the is using standards. At the same time the raspberry is cheap compadre to using a PC. Mr. P, are you going to open source your project? If so it sounds link the way to go. If done right you could trigger multiple videos.

@timon, everything i've done on the PI is already Open Source GPL, ive not written anything more than a tiny shell script line. and all the knowhow is in that other post

http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?22092-Art-net-E1-31-DMX-controlled-Video-Audio-player-using-Rasbperry-PI&highlight=raspberry


And yes, its easy to trigger multiple different clips.. Just a matter of setting up your OLA trigger file to point to the various different video files..

ANd yes, i see VLC is on PI, but its not yet using the harware acceleration.. I just gave it a whirl, and it running like a dog. No worry, becuase OLX plays just fine, and its easy to triggger.

JHinkle
10-16-2012, 04:02 PM
Instead of trying to work with the published version of VLC, I am going to create my own version where I have control over communication, scheduling, etc.

With that in mind .... I can already play a video on my player .... what do YOU need to have to get the video out to your projector?

Joe

Greg in Canby
10-16-2012, 04:24 PM
I can already play a video on my player ....
Joe
My day just got better!

timon
10-16-2012, 05:06 PM
Usually most use the second, third or forth, yea I know how many would have that many monitors, to drive the projectors.

That said I think looking at what MrP. is doing would be a great idea. It's almost off the shelf and can run over the ethernet. Being able to trigger videos off of a DMX source I think will become very handy. It's also cheap so having multiple video sources is doable.

I can think of one application right off the bat. Use a low cost small pico projector in front or inside busts to create talking heads. Inside is the best but requires a little more work to setup. Again using pico-projectors you could do window displays, wreaths and many other elements. Triggering short videos that could be projected on an entire house. The applications are endless.

The only issue I see is syncing to music especially "lip" syncing. I don't know if only the DMX trigger will be close enough but MrP can give is an idea about that. If it's not it is easy to sync the clock between all the elements as that's nothing more than NTP, network time protocol, running on all of the processors keeping then in sync within a few milliseconds. Almost every operating system has NTP so that's done. Then all you need is a way to get the sequencer to tell the remote exactly when to start so both of them are in sync.

Thoughts?

JHinkle
10-16-2012, 05:44 PM
Usually most use the second, third or forth,

Thoughts?


What does this mean?

Are users using a monitor?

Joe

timon
10-16-2012, 07:03 PM
Monitor ports. PC Notebooks can normally drive one external monitor or projector plus the internal display. Desks tops may only have one but you can always add more video cards. Now if your going nuts you can install two, three, four or more video cards and run that many monitors or projectors. I've seen some very high power PC with 6 displays. That normally takes really good video cards and a very fast computer to manage that many.

That's what I like about what MrP is talking about. Each unit is self contained and cost under $100. That's very attractive.

kingofkya
10-16-2012, 07:11 PM
Monitor ports. PC Notebooks can normally drive one external monitor or projector plus the internal display. Desks tops may only have one but you can always add more video cards. Now if your going nuts you can install two, three, four or more video cards and run that many monitors or projectors. I've seen some very high power PC with 6 displays. That normally takes really good video cards and a very fast computer to manage that many.

That's what I like about what MrP is talking about. Each unit is self contained and cost under $100. That's very attractive.

Not total true a cheap $20-30 card is capable of running 3 or more displays now. (most of the time one hdmi and 2 Div
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500220R



Display link is also starting to catch on you can have nearly unlimited number of monitors.
http://www.displaylink.com/




Usually most use the second, third or forth, yea I know how many would have that many monitors, to drive the projectors.

That said I think looking at what MrP. is doing would be a great idea. It's almost off the shelf and can run over the ethernet. Being able to trigger videos off of a DMX source I think will become very handy. It's also cheap so having multiple video sources is doable.

I can think of one application right off the bat. Use a low cost small pico projector in front or inside busts to create talking heads. Inside is the best but requires a little more work to setup. Again using pico-projectors you could do window displays, wreaths and many other elements. Triggering short videos that could be projected on an entire house. The applications are endless.

The only issue I see is syncing to music especially "lip" syncing. I don't know if only the DMX trigger will be close enough but MrP can give is an idea about that. If it's not it is easy to sync the clock between all the elements as that's nothing more than NTP, network time protocol, running on all of the processors keeping then in sync within a few milliseconds. Almost every operating system has NTP so that's done. Then all you need is a way to get the sequencer to tell the remote exactly when to start so both of them are in sync.

Thoughts?

A quality switch and/or router can easily have less the 1ms delay. Windows or linux. So the only delay is the processing time the hardware takes, still very quick.

mrpackethead
10-17-2012, 12:00 AM
something i'm trying right now is running multiple PI's each with a differnet but related sound track.. If you are familar with "its a small world at disney", as you go around the show, you get to hear the children singing in differnet languges, but the entire tune is always in track.. I'm wanting to do the same thign with my show, with the same "background track" but differnet "parts" being played at differnet parts of my show. So far i have got 6 PI's, and i can easily keep them in sync, so you can't notice that they are out of sync. I'm doing that sending E1.31 packets to start the clips.

I'm also workign on making this a bit smarter still and using LTC SMPTE as a way of keeping my show together.. This is how the big boys do this stuff, and its suprizngly uncomplicated.

dirknerkle
10-17-2012, 12:07 AM
something i'm trying right now is running multiple PI's each with a differnet but related sound track.. If you are familar with "its a small world at disney", as you go around the show, you get to hear the children singing in differnet languges, but the entire tune is always in track.. I'm wanting to do the same thign with my show, with the same "background track" but differnet "parts" being played at differnet parts of my show. So far i have got 6 PI's, and i can easily keep them in sync, so you can't notice that they are out of sync. I'm doing that sending E1.31 packets to start the clips.

I'm also workign on making this a bit smarter still and using LTC SMPTE as a way of keeping my show together.. This is how the big boys do this stuff, and its suprizngly uncomplicated.

I should think it'd be a lot easier with a multitrack digital recorder. I've got a 24 track unit that could easily do a dozen simultaneously, and all you'd have to do is send the outputs to a different amplifier/speaker setup. It's cake. No code to write... plug-n-play... no synchronizing to worry about...

angus40
10-17-2012, 12:17 AM
I should think it'd be a lot easier with a multitrack digital recorder. I've got a 24 track unit that could easily do a dozen simultaneously, and all you'd have to do is send the outputs to a different amplifier/speaker setup. It's cake. No code to write... plug-n-play... no synchronizing to worry about...

you will put the minions out of work that way !

timon
10-17-2012, 12:20 AM
MrP, that's cool.

I'm guessing the main point is syncing the DMX trigger at just the right point. Do you use the same length tracks then set the start point a few seconds in on the slaves?

JHinkle
10-17-2012, 05:25 AM
When you use a projector today for your show, does the program you use (like VLC, WMP, etc) show a frame at the top of the page - or is the screen totally consumed with video?

I tried VLC tis morning and I can't get rid of the frame at the top of the page.

I need to understand if this frame is an issue for those using projectors for shows.

Thanks.

joe

mrpackethead
10-17-2012, 02:16 PM
@dirk.. Almost *everything* i do in my home event , is R&D for some project that may nor many not happen in a commerical aspect. Yes, what you suggest would be a very valid suggestion, if you could run cables out to every location.. In fact i two have digital multitracking, and thats how im producing the audio tracks, i need.

And maybe we move this to another thread, because its hijacking ( accidently. )

injury
10-17-2012, 02:57 PM
When you use a projector today for your show, does the program you use (like VLC, WMP, etc) show a frame at the top of the page - or is the screen totally consumed with video?

I tried VLC tis morning and I can't get rid of the frame at the top of the page.

I need to understand if this frame is an issue for those using projectors for shows.

Thanks.

joe

I double click on the video in VLC then leave the mouse still and have nothing on the screen except the video. Their F11 "full screen" really just seems to work like Maximize Window

jduawa
10-17-2012, 03:00 PM
It depends on what ratio the video is in. If it is in 4:3 then there should not be any black bars, at least on a 4:3 monitor. If it is 16:9 then there will be black bars on the top and bottom. in the video menu full screen should play it in a frameless window

tfischer
10-17-2012, 03:16 PM
When you use a projector today for your show, does the program you use (like VLC, WMP, etc) show a frame at the top of the page - or is the screen totally consumed with video?

I tried VLC tis morning and I can't get rid of the frame at the top of the page.

I need to understand if this frame is an issue for those using projectors for shows.

Thanks.

joe

With LOR, if you're in full-screen mode (the norm) the screen is all video, no frame. I think most would find a frame distracting.

JHinkle
10-17-2012, 03:54 PM
I've got my Video Player almost complete.

I can play video.

It goes Full Screen .... nothing on the screen except video.

I'm just tying in the HLS communications.

I will release it to anyone interested in it later tonight.

Joe

Greg in Canby
10-17-2012, 07:06 PM
I'm interested, VERY interested. I'm out of town tomorrow night for the week but will give it a whirl toward the end of October. Then all I need to do is . . . well everything I guess.

XmasInGalt
10-17-2012, 07:12 PM
I'm also very interested. As of now, I don't have video planned for my display this year but that could change. Looking forward to playing with it.

timon
10-17-2012, 07:20 PM
I'll give it a shot since I have a second monitor I can connect.

jduawa
10-18-2012, 01:48 PM
I would also give it a go.
thanks

JHinkle
10-18-2012, 01:55 PM
Thanks for all of your comments.

I have released my Player.

Please see the following thread:

http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/showthread.php?22503-HLS-Video-Player-Remote-controlled-for-use-with-Projectors

Joe