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cmurray
01-08-2008, 02:18 AM
The DoItYourself community is about the FREE and OPEN sharing of ideas that can be used to control holiday lighting displays.

KC has graciously developed the best light control software available at any price but has said that he will not release the source. We were told this up front and have accepted this stipulation.

Three years ago Peter Olsen openly published the designs for the Olsen 595 controller and openly answered any questions to the point that anyone could replicate the circuit. Someone took that changed the DC outputs to triacs and the present 595 was born.
Earnie Horning tried to morph that into a dimming board, in theory anyway.
That inspired Phil Short to design a PIC based controller and after a little fine tuning RENARD was born.

Everything this community has accomplished started with Peter and Phil willing to openly share their ideas. No excuses of its not ready yet or its not pretty enough or I do not want any one else changing it.

We now have one thousand members. I would bet we have several thousand unregisters lurkers.
You do not have to participate in the forums to benefit from them. You can read the messages and the wiki, buy your own parts and assemble your boards, and even download any PIC code if needed. All without registering or participating in any coops. Some have even written their own Vixen plugins without any assistance.
This is true for most designs, but not ALL.....

On that note it could be said that that our purpose is the development of open source holiday lighting controllers and accessories.
Do we need to create a GPL for DIYC.
The key components being.
Everything available on this site is free for individual use.
In return we ask that you submit any improvements that you make so the entire community can benefit.
Any development done with the assistance of DIYC becomes open source.
Absolutely no information on this site shall be used for commercial gain.

JOel

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 02:37 AM
Is Vixen GPL?

P. Short
01-08-2008, 04:27 AM
Since the source hasn't been released, I would say that vixen is not GPL.

As for lurkers, I couldn't look at anything when I wasn't logged in.

--

Phi

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 04:36 AM
I was being sorta cagey, but lemme cut to the chase...

Why is there a different standard for the hardware than the software? If someone doesn't want to release every little detail of their hardware design, who cares?

I have to ask the people pushing this agenda what they hope to accomplish? If someone doesn't want to release information about their hardware design and we make that a requirement, these people will simply not share anything. (duh!)

I don't know about you but my face has never annoyed me enough to cut off my nose. (with apologies to those of you for whom English is a second language)

mrpackethead
01-08-2008, 06:13 AM
Any development done with the assistance of DIYC becomes open source.
Absolutely no information on this site shall be used for commercial gain.

JOel

I belive teh information shoudl be freely available. If you onwardlys develop somethign based on somebody elses work, then you should contribute your bits to the pool of knowledge.. Thats open-source in its purist form.

However about commerical gain.. I regularly charge people for fixing / working on open-source sofware / oses. They are paying for my skill / experience to solve there problems, and are aggreable to pay $$$ for that.. Thats quite ok under GPL rules.. I'd say that 99.99% of what i do is documented somewhere on the web.. So, if someone takes the time to develop something, posts all the details / code / schematics / info about it, the for example, decided to bundle it up as a kit, and make a small/big profit on it.. Well and good, if there are people willing to pay for it.. For most hobby ethustics like me, if i chose to put together a kit, and say make a few extra dollars on each, kit, the profits would just get poured back into new stuff anyway.. ( new dev tools etc ).. I doubt i'd ever make any commerical gain.. I reckon i'll only ever make a commerical loss... :(

The main point is that i think people need to be pretty clear and upfront about there intentions when they announce a project... Surely thats sufficent.


If however this forum decides this is policy, then i'll probably review my contributions, and act appropriately, become a lurker and post to my own web site where i can make 'rules' that I like.. Great thing democracy on the internet.. if you don't like the current government, you don't need to wait to the next election.. you just start your own country.

daviddth
01-08-2008, 06:38 AM
While my contributions are very minor compared to many, I would like to think that anyones input is worthwhile to develop the future controllers.

If Brian decides on a hard and fast rule of no-pre-made gear to be sold, then so be it. I wont like it, but this forum will survive and continue to grow.

Items like the LED lights are sold pre-assembled, but not in a case, (although the boards may be available bare soon). I cant see a problem with that as I can buy them and do what I want with them in MY display.

The Lynx is not open-source and there are a few secrets in the way it works, but again I can buy the gear and build my display around it.

John has helped modify many of the boards and has stock of them pretty much all year round.

The people involved are not making a huge profit, or maybe any at all, but the possibility of making a few cents on a board, or Pixel or whatever is there. How does Brian police that? (Oh and I dont mean to imply that any of the people are making a profit, but I used them as examples only).

I dont think he can. By ruling out pre-made boards for sale here, I think some common sence needs to be used. If the average user can solder up an SSR board, or ren64, or grinch etc then keep them as boards or kits and dont sell pre-made items. Items that contain very fine SMT, or multi-layered boards probably are over the top for most hobbiests, so probably should be avoided by the designers IF they can.

But what happens if someone wants help. If I want to add 1024 channels next year and I'm willing to pay $2 per SSR board soldered up (over the price of parts) because I simply wont have time to complete the task, should I be able to ask if anyone is willing to help me? Maybe, because I am ASKING for help, but should that same person that
helps me then be able to say He/She will work for $x per board - I dont think so, but its not a whole lot different.

Darn, time for a coffee.

RJ
01-08-2008, 09:03 AM
It's is funny how all of these problems are coming from new people to our board. Lets see if I get this correct, If I want to develop something And freely give it away (according to all our new friends) I have to provide schematics(which I rarely if ever create) and all source as this is their rules. Well first when you come to someones home you follow their rules not dictate them(in rome do as the romans do). Since I have been at this board since it's inception and before. I think this is BS. But if this is the way the forum is going as in I do not have a right to release informaton when I feel I am ready to release it, then the problem has a simple solution. As far as making money I would say I have spent over $1000 in the last year for the benifit of others here. Not for my benifit. I have run a board coop and forgot to charge for paypal fees(my lost), sold pcbs I had bought but not used for less that I purchased them to help others get started, spent money to help me design stuff for others in tools and parts, spent countless hours helping people fix stuff. design their own stuff, I have introduced hundreds of people to DIY xmas and in fact some of the new people are here because I reached out to convince them they could do it themselfs and we would help on other forums and gatherings. That was me, there are many here who have and are doing the same and much much more. Those who are now complianing of how we and I do things can you say the same? Brian works hard on this board and deserves support not the nasty emails and post he gets for a needed rule. The board would turn into a ebay for lighting goods at the rate it was heading. It's ok to bring up your opinion but this topic is turning into more than that.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 10:01 AM
It's is funny how all of these problems are coming from new people to our board. Lets see if I get this correct, If I want to develop something And freely give it away (according to all our new friends) I have to provide schematics(which I rarely if ever create) and all source as this is their rules. Well first when you come to someones home you follow their rules not dictate them(in rome do as the romans do). Since I have been at this board since it's inception and before. I think this is BS. But if this is the way the forum is going as in I do not have a right to release informaton when I feel I am ready to release it, then the problem has a simple solution. As far as making money I would say I have spent over $1000 in the last year for the benifit of others here. Not for my benifit. I have run a board coop and forgot to charge for paypal fees(my lost), sold pcbs I had bought but not used for less that I purchased them to help others get started, spent money to help me design stuff for others in tools and parts, spent countless hours helping people fix stuff. design their own stuff, I have introduced hundreds of people to DIY xmas and in fact some of the new people are here because I reached out to convince them they could do it themselfs and we would help on other forums and gatherings. That was me, there are many here who have and are doing the same and much much more. Those who are now complianing of how we and I do things can you say the same? Brian works hard on this board and deserves support not the nasty emails and post he gets for a needed rule. The board would turn into a ebay for lighting goods at the rate it was heading. It's ok to bring up your opinion but this topic is turning into more than that.

RJ,

I'll respond here, because I believe I've lost more money than you have, assuming that is a prerequisite to speak ones mind.

I believe the problem, myself included Robert, have with your system (not you personally so why turn it into a personal nature?) is that if I visit the Wiki, I do not see schematics (simple RJ and you -know- this, you probably had to provide the PCB producing company a file, release it, you probably know what parts go where, release that), no PCB layout, no BOM, in fact, absolutely nothing. What I do see however, is the possibility of profit, though I'll take you word for it that you're making none. Though I also see multiple units being released/put out that could be serving as a testing platform for pre-production purposes (ie. mass produce even if on a "small" level) for... who knows.

No one is questioning your contributions to the DIY community, I'm certainly not. Though, look at it from another persons perspective. Brian (Admin/Owner of the forum) puts out information stating that the "High Council" of the forum decided not to allow preassembled SSR's. You're a moderator, let it be for a single forum or not, you are a moderator and even if not that, a senior member. Though, you're doing the very thing that is being disallowed.

It's natural for anyone to raise an eyebrow and think, "Whats with the double standard."

The "when in Rome", is some what weak RJ, I expected more from you than that. EVERYONE makes the community of a forum, especially one that deals with the subject discussed, designed, etc. here on a daily basis. If you're suggesting that you, Phil, KC, Brian, Sean, etc. should be playing with "your ball with your rules" then perhaps you lost the DIY spirit.

Do I agree that assembled items should not be permitted, yes, I do (sorry to those that disagree) but with that said, I also believe such items include your Lynx (at the way it stands especially with no shared/open information concerning it). I've felt that way since I've seen co-op post from you, but, you being a moderator well... that and up until this post I cared whether or not I remained a user here. If this post were to end that, so be it. Rome wasn't built in a day and Rome fell in the end..

Trepidati0n
01-08-2008, 11:58 AM
I think the development forum might go a long ways to reducing this issue. I understand where RJ is coming from. He wants to share what he has learned. However, people can be somewhat rude or insensitive when coming up with improvements. Designs are like children...we love them, nurture them, grow them and pretty much want to shoot anybody who thinks badly of them. The people currently in the developer forum understand what it takes to raise those children and thus might provide advice in a manner that is more constructive to help push designs forward. Worst case if you don't have post privledge to the development forum is you PM the designer. If that doesn't work...PM the admin.

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 12:17 PM
I believe the problem, myself included Robert, have with your system ... is that if I visit the Wiki, I do not see schematics (simple RJ and you -know- this, you probably had to provide the PCB producing company a file, release it, you probably know what parts go where, release that), no PCB layout, no BOM, in fact, absolutely nothing.

First you're overselling it. He has released a bunch of information about it in his posts. He also released pictures of the finished product. From those 2 things you have a real good guesstimate of what is in it and how it works. Heck, buy one and reverse engineer the dang thing.

Second, he had said on numerous occasions that while other things he has done are more open, he wants to keep the Lynx architecture closed because he wants a better experience for the end user. DO NOT DISCOUNT the benefit to the end user of this approach. If you don't think this approach benefits the end user, I'd suggest you call Steve Jobs and ask him how Apple stock and customer satisfaction numbers are doing.

DIYers come is all shapes and sizes... By the end of the summer I'm buying "something" for my 15 year old nephew. His dad died and I sorta teach him things his dad would if he where still here. I won't be buying him a Ren anything... I'll get him a Lynx or we'll go direct off the LPT1. He simply is not ready for more.



What I do see however, is the possibility of profit


GET A ROPE!

By my count he's sold a little over 100 of these 16 channel boxes at about $80 a piece - Cheap by even DIY standards. LET'S PRETEND he is skimming 5 bucks off each one. For all his time and trouble he has made ~$500 bucks. GROSS. Forget his expenses. I bill my time at $100 an hour. I'm sure someone with his skills could get contract work at a similar rate. If you think he's making mad LYNX money off hapless DIYers, you haven't thought it thru.



Though I also see multiple units being released/put out that could be serving as a testing platform for pre-production purposes (ie. mass produce even if on a "small" level) for... who knows.

OH MY GOSH! And that evil bastard sold it to us on the cheap before it was released.. I feel, I feel so voilated.

My reply is sarcastic to make you think about what you are saying. If he wants to produce a product for mass production later, who cares? He's going to do it with or without us. Even assuming he is as evil and as unscrupulous as you imply, we still benefit!!! Yippe for the free market!

It would take me about a week to build him a state of the art website where he could sell all the kits he wanted. Hate to burst your bubble but the idea he needs us as test bed is silly. Youtube is pushing people to this hobby in droves. If you think this is the only game in town and will remain that way, you're beyond naive.

This reply is not meant to be personal... although I admit, I've been a bit rough on you... but I'm trying to get you drop the Neo-Marxists rant and think about things for a minute.

If people like RJ are given too much grief, they will simply go elsewhere; the internet is a big place. It really is that simple. If you think that will make this a better place, I won't simply tell you I disagree, (as I normally would) I'll flat tell you that you are wrong.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 12:48 PM
...[Insert irrational reactions here]...

I wasn't attempting to "sell" my opinions, simply stating them. Is it his prerogative to NOT release information, sure it is, however, this is NOT the premise of the discussion.


GET A ROPE!

Why did you fail to quote the remaining portion of my sentence? Thats misrepresentation sir and I do not appreciate that one bit.

Why is it that someone who replies to a message where someone elses opinion differs from their own, the person in which they are replying is "ranting?" Why is that?

Now, lets get back to how what RJ is doing is any different than any other assemble project, shall we? Lets get back on to how receiving an assembled unit is "DIY", shall we?

I'M not the one who decided to close up the idea of offering assemble products, apparently a group of individuals did and Brian is simply enforcing that ideal. I'm simply wondering why it RJ's Lynx is available in assembled form though at the same time the hammer is put down on assembled SSR. It's about the double standard, it may not have been on purpose, though whichever way you cut it, the Lynx is an assembled project and we're not allowing outsourced/assembled SSR's. Why?

If this Lynx co-op isn't offering an assembled product, then by all means I apologize I was wrong, though it's my belief that it is.

Your reply was personal friend, at least admit to it like a man.

Trip
01-08-2008, 12:56 PM
If this Lynx co-op isn't offering an assembled product, then by all means I apologize I was wrong, though it's my belief that it is.

I believe it is a kit that comes with all the parts that you have to assemble yourself.


NOLA, why aren't you drunk somewhere on a curb. I would be if I still lived down there. GEAUX TIGERS!

P. Short
01-08-2008, 12:59 PM
The overall tone of testiness in this topic is getting to be a bit annoying. It's not what this group should be about, and I'm beginning to see the benefits of having a heavy-handed administrator like pc.

--

Phil

WakeFan
01-08-2008, 01:01 PM
The Lynx is unassembled.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 01:07 PM
If this Lynx co-op isn't offering an assembled product, then by all means I apologize I was wrong, though it's my belief that it is.

I believe it is a kit that comes with all the parts that you have to assemble yourself.


NOLA, why aren't you drunk somewhere on a curb. I would be if I still lived down there. GEAUX TIGERS!

Ok, I thought I had read it was assembled, then what I have stated is null and void.

And for the record (for those of whom English is not their primary language), my post was never to get on RJ on a personal level (I thought I made that abundantly clear) of any kind. Nor was my post suggesting he HAD to share his information (the "suggestion" was simply supportive facts that he doesn't have such information in the Wiki for a now null void argument), in fact, I'm grateful for those that share any information at all, RJ included (LEDtriks, Grinch, etc. come to mind). I also support their prerogative to share or not share any and all information. Do I believe we'll all benefit from "open source" of course I do, though still it is within a persons right to share or not share. Plain and simple.

My problem, which no longer exists, was that I was under the strong impression that the Lynx was assembled and it was allowed, which assembled SSR's were clearly not.

As for KC's software. I -believe- the "engine" of that software is being used for commercial software (assuming he is still contracted by LOR), so of course he wouldn't share the source code. I'll be thankful enough that he still updates this software for free use because honestly, I was a little scared that that day would come to an end once he announced becoming an employee of LOR (it is/was LOR right?).

Trepidati0n
01-08-2008, 01:07 PM
The Lynx is unassembled.

The wiki indicates this...


In an effort to prevent variations in the design (leading to complications for the newer builders), insure that troubleshooting help can be provided, and keep the total cost as low as possible it is done as a modified coop. All the parts including the PCB and an enclosure are included. The necessary PIC microprocessor will come with the program preloaded so that the builder will not need a PIC programmer. A detailed instruction manual with pictures is included and should allow anyone with basic soldering skills to successfully build the controller.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 01:11 PM
The Lynx is unassembled.

The wiki indicates this...


In an effort to prevent variations in the design (leading to complications for the newer builders), insure that troubleshooting help can be provided, and keep the total cost as low as possible it is done as a modified coop. All the parts including the PCB and an enclosure are included. The necessary PIC microprocessor will come with the program preloaded so that the builder will not need a PIC programmer. A detailed instruction manual with pictures is included and should allow anyone with basic soldering skills to successfully build the controller.

Sigh, thank you (again).

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 01:21 PM
Speaking of irrational reactions...

You have no clue what you are talking about but you are willing to lecture people... sigh...


>NOLA, why aren't you drunk somewhere on a curb. I would be if I still lived down there. GEAUX TIGERS!

Who says I ain't? EVDO man EVDO. The first quarter was scary but after that it was all Tigers.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 01:25 PM
Speaking of irrational reactions...

You have no clue what you are talking about but you are willing to lecture people... sigh...


NOLA, you wish to continue with the personal attacks, by all means continue doing so.

I was confident that the Lynx co-op was for an assembled unit, I was wrong, I admitted I was wrong and I made my apologies.

While a more primitive side of me wishes to say more, I agree with Phil that there has been more than enough testiness.

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 01:32 PM
oh please.... You lit off after RJ based on complete ignorance of which you spoke... And you want to whine that you where attacked?

oh my, now YOU play the victim card...

spare me.

P. Short
01-08-2008, 01:37 PM
Knock it off, guys.

--

Phil

Aurbo99
01-08-2008, 01:40 PM
Thanks Phil.. =P


You guys catching the weather up here in Altantic Canada, and Maine?

I was out in my shorts and a t-shirt (not a pretty sight) taking down my display.

At this rate the rest of the snow will have melted by days end and I can gather up my SSROZ's that are still encased in the ice.

kostyun
01-08-2008, 01:59 PM
Not that I am a person to encourage the deletion, or locking of threads, but, this is one that

KC stated early on that he was not going to be providing the source code to Vixen, and we were all aware of this early on. KC has also been wonderful in keeping updates in improvements to the Vixen program comming, and has been great to working through the bugs in the program. With Vixen, we are also able to develop our own plugins to use hardware that we may create.

As far as hardware goes, I think at DIY Christmas, we are "striving" to have a low-cost non commercial solution for Christmas lights animation.

With the spirit of DIY christmas, the idea is to have while folks such as Peter Olesen and Phil Short (and others) have provided the code to create products based on their initial designs, others have not, but, still are creating a low-cost solution for people by providing a simple solder up kit for people to assemble and are keeping the spirit of what we are all about.

We are all here because we like to be able to create our own displays, and build/assemble our own hardware.

The idea with this is to use simple products, such as DIP components, and
in the future, this may become harder to do, as (DynamoBen) has been stated, that some products and parts are just not availible in DIP format, and only in SMT, in which case we will need to further our soldering skills, or resort to having some objects pre-assembled (at the "vote" of forum members for this choice)

This is just my two cents on this subject, and I am requesting this thread be locked so that it can be viewed, but, no longer posted in.

RJ
01-08-2008, 02:04 PM
If the fear is profit, you may rest easy. The Lynx complete manual, since I am required for some reason to explian myself, comes with a complete parts list and an appendix that cover the theory of operation. Those that recieved the draft copies would have noticed the sections were there but not filled in yet. It will be easy enough for every one to quote the quanity ordered and part price to find the per unit cost. I can tell you it is more than I sold the kits for since I failed to add the cost of the strian reliefs when I did the math. So as they should be, they are on me so to speak. I would not have ever said this as there will be people who want to pay extra to cover them and I would have perfered to eat it as it was my mistake. I have never had any ill intent nor profit in mind on any project. This ugly rumor was started for what ever purpose. I was told once it was because when I was designing the Lynx I once asked how cheap it would have to be before people would be interested. I was told some people on the chat at the time believe I ment how much could I sell them for. But for what ever the reason. When the truth is that I was tring to define weither it could be built in a cost that made since to move ahead or if it was too expensive to build. The next rumor.. I am desinging here to go sell on commercial. This is a laugh. Why would anyone design here to do that. And beliee me the design is not even close to being worthy. You all are going to feel stupid when you find out that there is nothing special to the lynx and that it works just as I have said over and over again nothing more. Phil Short can explian it right now and have in at least one post. And since I am catching it for this too, I might as well say that I had nothing to do with the new rule. I read about it as the rest of you did. My call to support Brian did not come from my involvement in the rule of which I wasn't, It came because he is our admin and does much for all of us nothing more, nothing less.

And the funnist of all is that any of you think that I want money from you. Those of you that know me a little more than most know why this is so funny!

Btw .. The lynx kit is a box, some parts and a pcb with manual nothing is assembled. Done as a kit to keep the cost lower and to make it easy for the builder as they do not need to hunt parts and we spread shipping out while getting quanity pricing.


RJ

hutchijw
01-08-2008, 02:32 PM
RJ, did you win the lottery ? If so, it'll be our little secret. Just add me to your friends list. hahaha

mrpackethead
01-08-2008, 03:34 PM
I sure don't aggree with RJ on that much. However i respect his position.

I poked and proded to try to get him to give away some info. He had decided that is not how his project is running. Respect him for that, hes making a valuable contribution. If you dont' like that, don't get yourself a lynx (in any shape or form)

I'm putting together a project and i'm going to make up the rules about how it will work as well. I already have 'pre' requests for over 400 units of the dmx module before i have even finished it. Just the way it is.. Come up with something that folks want i guess, they will ask..

If the rules of the forum are in conflict with how i want to run my project, then so be it, it won't change my project, it will just mean that the wider DIY Christmas community won't get to see it on this forum.. However that does'nt need to happen becuase we are not that far mis-alingned.

However:

(1) I am not going to be constrained by technology ( specifically SMT )
(2) I will not be supplying blank pcbs. ( if someone wants to produce some from artwork, then happy to supply that and the schematics and code.
(3) I will be having my boards factory assembled in china
(4) I will be having my PIC uP preloaded with code before they leave Microchip.. for a few cents a chip, hey i can't be bothered!
(5) I would like to make these modules available to others so that they can integrate them into others projects. THat would be my contrib ution to this great hobby. I'll sell them at a resonable price that reflects the real cost of delivering them.. The reality is that i can buy an assembled board and components from china, cheaper than i can buy the components alone from more traditional sources.

, if you feat profit, you should fear the sky falling on your head.. The community would recognised profit taking instantly, and wouldn'nt support it.. So instead of regulating development, simply let it run. Let the members deceid which projects they want to run with. Simple.. Bad project ethics simply won't get supported.. Good project ethics will get supported.



If the fear is profit, you may rest easy. The Lynx complete manual, since I am required for some reason to explian myself, comes with a complete parts list and an appendix that cover the theory of operation. Those that recieved the draft copies would have noticed the sections were there but not filled in yet. It will be easy enough for every one to quote the quanity ordered and part price to find the per unit cost. I can tell you it is more than I sold the kits for since I failed to add the cost of the strian reliefs when I did the math. So as they should be, they are on me so to speak. I would not have ever said this as there will be people who want to pay extra to cover them and I would have perfered to eat it as it was my mistake. I have never had any ill intent nor profit in mind on any project. This ugly rumor was started for what ever purpose. I was told once it was because when I was designing the Lynx I once asked how cheap it would have to be before people would be interested. I was told some people on the chat at the time believe I ment how much could I sell them for. But for what ever the reason. When the truth is that I was tring to define weither it could be built in a cost that made since to move ahead or if it was too expensive to build. The next rumor.. I am desinging here to go sell on commercial. This is a laugh. Why would anyone design here to do that. And beliee me the design is not even close to being worthy. You all are going to feel stupid when you find out that there is nothing special to the lynx and that it works just as I have said over and over again nothing more. Phil Short can explian it right now and have in at least one post. And since I am catching it for this too, I might as well say that I had nothing to do with the new rule. I read about it as the rest of you did. My call to support Brian did not come from my involvement in the rule of which I wasn't, It came because he is our admin and does much for all of us nothing more, nothing less.

And the funnist of all is that any of you think that I want money from you. Those of you that know me a little more than most know why this is so funny!

Btw .. The lynx kit is a box, some parts and a pcb with manual nothing is assembled. Done as a kit to keep the cost lower and to make it easy for the builder as they do not need to hunt parts and we spread shipping out while getting quanity pricing.


RJ

NOLAlights
01-08-2008, 04:25 PM
OK on closing the thread, I disagree, where there has been heat on this thread, there is a bunch of light too...

THESE ISSUES WILL NOT GO AWAY by sticking our heads in the sand....

I'm a big picture guy so lemme define the question for some people who might not have thought about it as much as I have...

This forum is a collection of creative people trying to build better mousetraps. SURPRISE, it's effective and better mousetraps are being built every day.

So the question is, do we pass a bunch of rules regulating mousetrap creation or do we let people just build mousetraps?

(surprise again) If you've read my rantings, you know I come down strongly (and unabashedly) on the side of letting creative people build better mousetraps.

I can -and have- made my case strongly, and I like to tell my self effectively. ;-)

If you disagree ok, that's fine and all... but make your case why we need to put rules on the mousetrap makers and what we all get from these rules.

You might convince me... If the rules benefit everyone they are good. But if they are rules for the ego of the rulemaker... well, that's just not a good thing.

Think about the big picture.

lbro
01-08-2008, 05:10 PM
You know, this is way out of control. I too was here before and when this board started. I met Brian and some others on here before this board was brough on-line. And this is NOT why it was started, to argue and call others names.

If KC wants to write and update this software for us and not release details, he has every right to do so. If you don't like that, use someone elses software or write your own.

If RJ wants to design and sell kits for his system, not give out any information on its design, that's fine. He is not asking any of you to buy it. He is spending his own time to develop it. If he set a price $80 and you feel that is fair, buy it, if not don't. He isn't forcing anyone to, and if he makes a little something for his trouble, good for him. Last I checked, that is how our system works.

Just used you as an example RJ, that's all.

If Jayson wants to run that large group buy and save everyone some money on parts, no one is forced to take part. You don't like his way of doing it, don't get involved.

This was all about everyone here helping out others with thoughts, suggestions, and questions on hardware and software. I for one am glad that we have such dedicated people to help others out. I know that I have had help from Sean Bowf, Phil, Frank, KC, RJ, Brian, Jayson, Wayne, and others. Without them, we would not be here now.

I think that people having all these issues that are coming up, you have come to the wrong forum.



Lou

Wayne J
01-08-2008, 05:44 PM
I think that people having all these issues that are coming up, you have come to the wrong forum.
Lou

Lou, you nailed it.
While I was been reading these posts, I said to myself that very same thing.
This is simple folks. If you are not happy with how things are 'here', then 'here' is not where you need to be.

JaysonH
01-08-2008, 06:04 PM
I wasn't about to touch this post again with a 10 foot pole (and I'll likely regret not sticking to my guns) though I just wanted to clarify something (not saying any particular person misunderstood my posts - I just want to make it clear):

I was not attempting to come down on RJ, in fact, it was brought up to me via email that what he was selling were assembled and I too thought that (after all if you are certain the grass is green who's why would you doubt yourself), so naturally I ASSumed (my mistake I should have known better) that this was the case.

Now, based on what I thought was correct, I was just bringing up what some others have (through forum and otherwise - for some reason some individuals email me I guess thinking I'm an "authority" here or veteran - hardly in the likes of Brian, Phil, KC, Sean, etc. though thank you if that is what you thought).

Believing that the Lynx were assembled it would have been a double standard and I would have raised an eyebrow to it. Though I've been corrected, I acknowledged (and still do so) that I was incorrect and that was that. I certainly did not try to make any attempts at name calling or the like - I'll ask that you point out to me via PM where that is in hopes that I may edit it out as it was definitely not my intention.

As for the "profit" or "mass producing" comments, I wrote those thinking (for whatever reason - its a habit of mine drives my wife nuts) that others knew what I knew and that is that atleast two others of the forums brought it up via private means, whether or not they were brought up in the forums I do not know. So, there you go. My -personal- views are, if RJ turns a profit it's his business, -I- wouldn't do that, but that is me and different strokes for different folks. I know co-ops of any kind often times , well, take money out of the co-op organizers pocket. It's not a pleasant thing, but, in the end the participants hopefully got a good deal and they're happy - which in turn I suspect makes Sean (SSR PCB's), wjohn (almost every other PCB), Frank (Ren24), Wayne (Ren-T), Brian (Olsen), RJ (Lynx), etc, etc. happy as well. It's why I do it anyway.

Again, too to reiterate this. I'm all for an individual deciding themselves whether or not they share something. This goes for KC's Vixen, I was just trying to explain why it wouldn't be open source (dunno if anyone who actually posted in the thread thought I was complaining that it wasn't open source - but someone via email did), that's all. :)

Backing out from this as I see it esculating and drawing more veterans into the conversation some that would otherwise usually be quiet throughout slightly heated posts - a clear indication that this thread is.. well. Just not good.

Hope I atleast cleared up my participation in the thread. This is why I usually stay quiet, placing thoughts on paper never was my forte'.

kostyun
01-08-2008, 06:42 PM
Thread locked until further review is made

The question that jrock posted:



On that note it could be said that that our purpose is the development of open source holiday lighting controllers and accessories.
Do we need to create a GPL for DIYC.
The key components being.
Everything available on this site is free for individual use.
In return we ask that you submit any improvements that you make so the entire community can benefit.
Any development done with the assistance of DIYC becomes open source.
Absolutely no information on this site shall be used for commercial gain.



has not really been answered in this post, and this post is getting off topic. This is not an attempt to censor anyone one, but, this is to allow Brian an opportunity to look at and review this thread so that a decision can be made. Threads like this do nothing but create conflit.

We want to encourage the development of new hardware, but, we also want to have that new hardware be understandable and have a new user be able to build and assemble.

We do not want to be like our "friends" at planet christmas, and have tons of topics "disappear" because someone does not like what was said.