Renard SS24 18 out 24 lights staying on

[scubaspookf]

Well I built my first SS24 board and I thought it went fairly smooth until it came time to test it. So here is my problem. So I followed the Beginners Setup Guide The Renard SS24 and it passed the tests 1 thru 18. Now test 19 thru 23 I had issues. Channel 1 had constant power (light stayed on) Channel 2 and 3 tested as it should, Channel 4 light came on and had a voltage of 67 and when the jumper was placed it increased to 120, when jumper was removed it went back to 67volts. Channel 5,6,7, had constant voltage like channel 1. Well the rest of the board goes on this way. The only channels that work correctly is 2,3,11,16,17,24, the are a total of 8 channels that have a low voltage of about 67 and when jumper is added they go up to 120 volts. If the optoisolators are removed there is still voltage going to the channels if that is any help. I have taken what I think is a good look at the board and everything is soldiered good (nothing is missed and nothing is touching). What could it be? Troubling shooting seems to point at the triacs but it is hard to believe that I have that many bad. Any suggestions?

[oldcqr]

If I am not mistaken: If there is not enough draw on a Triac to shut it off and keep it off, that triac is going to show a higher than 0 voltage.

Rather than using a volt meter, hook up some actual incandescent (NOT LED) lights and test again. A single string of minis or even a night light will do.

[scubaspookf]

I am running about a 100 watt flood lamp so that should be enough to pull the triacs. I measure the voltage with the flood attached an on. Thanks for the input.

[oldcqr]

Ahh Ok.

That's all I had. I'm sure someone smarter than me will chime in now.

[ErnieHorning]

Well if the soldering is good and the resistors are correct and in the correct places, it sounds like bad TRIAC’s. 100 watts is only .8 amps so they should run all day even without heatsinks and still turn off.

Have you tried running them for about 30 seconds, disconnecting power and feeling the TRIAC temperature? They can get hot but not uncomfortable where you think it’s going to burn your fingers. Screaming hot will turn on any TRIAC.

If everything seems good, I have to say its bad TRIAC’s. I’d still wonder how this happened because it’s not normal.

[Mactayl]

Have you checked to make sure you don't have some 680 ohm resistors where the 180 ohm resistors should be or vice versa?
and do you have any pictures that may help...

[kychristmas]

I would focus on the first 8 channels and move from there. In my opinion, you have more than one problem. Don't know what the Beginner's setup guide is, but if you have a PIC Programmer, I would burn the Beta Diagnostic firmware onto a PIC and go from there. Forgive me, I can't get to the Wiki at work so I can't see the setup guide.

[scubaspookf]

Okay get this. I told the wife this afternoon about my problem and she came up with the answer. Drum Roll please.

She said that the board probably doesn't work with Halloween Lights since it is made for Christmas ones. NO she is not a blonde.

Okay I have uploaded a few pics to my album if it helps any for visual help. If more pics are needed let me know. Still stumped.

[timsdailydose]

My wife saw the photos and saw exactly what the problem was... Another drum roll..... Some of the resistors are backwards:lol:

[Matt_Edwards]

looking at your photos, particulary 7 to 10, i am wondering if you have too much solder and the pins of the triac might be shorted on the top side.

[james70818]

You want to look at solder joints that are ball like. Look in image #4 in the middle. I like to reflow those and get the cone shape. Also looks like you use a lot of heat and a lot of solder. On the front side of the board, you can see a lot of solder that flows thru the board and collects on the this side. You need to look for shorts here too when you have this condition.

James

[kychristmas]

First, link your pictures in your thread posts. I wouldn't even have known how to put them in an album without uploading through the Post interface.

In picture 10, I can see solder that has run out on the topside of the opto socket on the left. If that flow goes the other way on others, there's going to be piun shorted out. In my opinion, you have used too much solder on a lot of those.

Reflow everything that isn't Cone Shaped as James has said. Look for evidence of solder on the top side (I can see it on the resistors too) and actually remove some of that solder with a desoldering tool, solder sucker, or braid.

Be patient and you'll get it working completely. Since you know that the COMM stuff works, I would focus on the components for the 1st 8 Channels (Optos and Triacs) and move from there.

[scubaspookf]

Thanks for the input folks. I am going to try my luck at desoldering and remove the triacs that don't seem to be working properly. I will be using the desoldering wick to accomplish this. No one near me sells it so I had to order online and I am going to buy a few extra triacs just in case the ones I have are bad. Just a question, could I have gotten them to hot during soldering? And is there a cheap way on testing them outside of the board as when I remove the originals I would like to be able to test them.

[ErnieHorning]

And is there a cheap way on testing them outside of the board as when I remove the originals I would like to be able to test them.

No cheaper than an actual circuit but you could duplicate one channel of an external SSR.

You could just switch in a small coin type lithium battery to supply a voltage to the LED in an opto-coupler. For a tester, you would’t even need a current limit resistor because the internal resistance is high enough to limit the current anyway.

So you would’t get shocked, I would use a 24 volt or less step-down transformer (or AC wall-wart). Don’t forget to change the gate resistor. I believe it’s 33Ω for 24 volts and 22Ω for 12, check the Wiki.

You could use a socket for the TRIAC for low current and low voltage (24 VAC and under). You would also need a light bulb rated for the voltage that you chose.

[scubaspookf]

Well I got in the desoldering wick but unfortunately I had no luck using it. I have none-the-less removed a few of the triacs that were not acting normal. I am currently waiting on a few triacs to come in from Mouser so I can try and resolder them. I am thinking that maybe I had gotten the originals to hot when soldering them to cause them to go bad.

Question: Does it really matter if the AC neutral wire is connected properly? If so how do you know which one is actually neutral?

[ErnieHorning]

Question: Does it really matter if the AC neutral wire is connected properly? If so how do you know which one is actually neutral?
Electrically no, it’s AC so it’s the same either way. Safety wise yes, you want to be switching the Hot side and not the Neutral. GFCI’s won’t work correctly (you should be using them) if you’re switching the neutral wire.

On the outlet or plug, the neutral is the wider side. On lamp cords (SPT) neutral is the ribbed (or bump) side. On three wire cords, neutral is either white or blue. You should always check it with an ohm meter to make sure.

[scubaspookf]

Okay I have given up as of today as I don't understand what on earth is going on. Here is what I have done. I got in the new triacs. I decided to try and trouble shoot before soldering them in. So I ran a jumper from the fuse to the triac and a jumper from the terminal block to the triac. Applied power and my 100watt light did not come on. This is what I expected. Next I hooked a jumper from the triac to the resistor (channel 6). Applied power and the light came on. Here is the kicker. The optoisolator is removed so the way I look at it the light should still stay off. So I thought maybe there is a short somewhere. I hooked up my continuity tester (it makes a soud when both leads touch) to the ic socket that leads to the resistor and to the resistor and I get a tone. I then touched the same ic socket to everthing else on the board and got no tone. I then cut out the soldered in resistor. I hooked up another resistor by jumpers from the triac to the pin on the ic socket. Applied power and the light came on again. Rember that the optoisolator is still removed. So I'm thinking that maybe the ic socket has a short. I hooked up my tester to pin 4 of the socket then touched all of the other pins and got no tone. So I am really stumped. Just a side note I hooked up the same triac with jumpers to a known working channel and the triac works like it should. Any suggestions anyone? Hopefully I explained things clearly.

[dirknerkle]

If the opto is disabled/missing, it sounds more to me more like the triac legs are shorted out on either the top or bottom of the board.

[scubaspookf]

dirknerkle the triac that I am testing is not connected to the board. the original channel 6 triac is completely removed along with the resistor. I am running jumpers as if it is connected to the board. When jumped to channel 6 ic socket light comes on with no opto installed. when I hook it up to a properly working channel say channel 2 the same triac works like it should. I am beginning to think that there is something wrong with the ic socket. None of the solder pins are touching on ic socket. Took a magnifying glass and looked. The only reason that I am thinking this way is because I put a ohms test on pin 4 and 6 of the ic socket and my tester shows like 98.6 but when i check a working channel ic socket it reads 0. this makes me think that pin 4 and 6 is making some sort of contact but not enough to make my continuity test make a tone.

[barbotte]

well you let me know how you fix it ..as i have 1 ren 24ss that has power to almost all of them.. more to fallow as i am not done playing with it
cheer

[Penfold]

What I did notice on Pic 7 in your album was that you had an open joint by one of the triacs. Have you tried to reprogram the the PIC chips or make sure that none of the pins are touching. Also, I would look at the top and bottom of the board carefully to make sure that there was no solder splash that might have caused a couple of traces to short.

[scubaspookf]

Okay I have given up on this particular board mainly do to the destruction of it. While trying to trouble shoot the problems and desoldering parts some of the solder pads have came loose from the board. But I did come to a conclusion after testing multiple triacs and other parts of the board is that somehow current or connectivity was being made in the 6 pin ic socket connectors. When I removed the ic sockets problems went away. Well I have not given up on the board or my ability to build one. Last night I received another BOM from mouser as I had another PCB laying around. I tried to take extra pracaution while assembling it and testing it as I go. As of now I have 12 channels soldered and all are testing correctly. Tonight I will solder in the other 12 channels and hopefully they will test positive. I guess after that I will insert the PIC's and go to the next stage of testing. If I have any further issues I will post a new thread as this will be a new board. Just a side note I really hate thinking I threw away $100 on the first board. So should I attempt to use what channels were working properly? Should I attempt to run jumper wires to points that came seperated from the board? Trying to salvage parts from the board is proving useless as ic sockets are melting when I try to desolder them. Thoughts?

[ErnieHorning]

Thoughts?

If you want to just pay the shipping, I’ll fix the entire board and send it back to you 100% working. Just PM me if you’re interested.

Believe me, no matter how bad it is, I’ve fixed much worse. :)

[oldcqr]

Believe Ernie. He is DA MAN.

[kychristmas]

If you want to just pay the shipping, I’ll fix the entire board and send it back to you 100% working. Just PM me if you’re interested.

Believe me, no matter how bad it is, I’ve fixed much worse. :)

Seriously Scuba, take him up on it. You really can't beat that offer.

[scubaspookf]

If you want to just pay the shipping, I’ll fix the entire board and send it back to you 100% working. Just PM me if you’re interested.

Believe me, no matter how bad it is, I’ve fixed much worse. :)

I just thought I would let yall know that I sent Ernie pictures of the board so he knows what he is getting into and WOW, his offer still stands on fixing it. Thank You.

For those of you that have ever watched the tv show Earl you should know something abot Karma. First of all I had a lot of bad luck lately and it happened in one week. First when I got in my BOM for my board some parts were on back order. Ordered replacement parts from another vendor the components were different. So, eager to build but can't. The ABS pump on my motorcycle went out. Took it to the shop and that costed $$$$$. Went to pick the bike after it was repaired over 100 miles away and my car broke down on the way back so more $$$$ to fix it. Was searching for a stand alone 3 to 4 channel light controllers on the web and my laptop got a virus from one of the sites that had these controllers. Spent $$$$ to have computer repaired. Couple days later when I received my laptop back went back surfing for the controllers and WHAM got the same d**n virus. There are few more bad luck items that had occured in between then the malfuctioning board that I soldered and then screwing up the board trying to desolder it. How did I piss off Karma so bad? Well whatever I did Karma must have thought that I have learned my lesson as it looks like things are looking up. I finished last night soldering up the remaining 12 channels and everything is working/testing as it should. This weekend I will hook it up to Vixen and see if it actually works (fingers crossed). Next a nice guy (Ernie) has volunteered to fix my screwed up board. Hopefully this positive trend will continue.

[ErnieHorning]

I intend to post the (embarrassing) before, during and after pictures. Maybe these will help someone else.

After all, they rebuilt the Six million dollar man. How hard could this be? :D

[kychristmas]

Man, I just hope whatever Voodoo is there doesn't get shipped to Ernie :)


I just thought I would let yall know that I sent Ernie pictures of the board so he knows what he is getting into and WOW, his offer still stands on fixing it. Thank You.

For those of you that have ever watched the tv show Earl you should know something abot Karma. First of all I had a lot of bad luck lately and it happened in one week. First when I got in my BOM for my board some parts were on back order. Ordered replacement parts from another vendor the components were different. So, eager to build but can't. The ABS pump on my motorcycle went out. Took it to the shop and that costed $$$$$. Went to pick the bike after it was repaired over 100 miles away and my car broke down on the way back so more $$$$ to fix it. Was searching for a stand alone 3 to 4 channel light controllers on the web and my laptop got a virus from one of the sites that had these controllers. Spent $$$$ to have computer repaired. Couple days later when I received my laptop back went back surfing for the controllers and WHAM got the same d**n virus. There are few more bad luck items that had occured in between then the malfuctioning board that I soldered and then screwing up the board trying to desolder it. How did I piss off Karma so bad? Well whatever I did Karma must have thought that I have learned my lesson as it looks like things are looking up. I finished last night soldering up the remaining 12 channels and everything is working/testing as it should. This weekend I will hook it up to Vixen and see if it actually works (fingers crossed). Next a nice guy (Ernie) has volunteered to fix my screwed up board. Hopefully this positive trend will continue.

[dirknerkle]

After all, they rebuilt the Six million dollar man. How hard could this be? :D

Yeah, but it lasted only 4 seasons...

[mschell]

A suggestion - get yourself a good anti-virus, anti-spam piece of software. One that gets updates fairly often. Some of the "free" ones aren't bad, but think how much it cost you to get the computer repaired. It wouldn't hurt to invest $30-40 for protection. I'd throw out a few names, but just like noses, everybody has an opinion about which one is better or worse.

And don't click on every link that you see on a web page, or agree to any pop-ups.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic of this thread...

[scubaspookf]

A suggestion - get yourself a good anti-virus, anti-spam piece of software. One that gets updates fairly often. Some of the "free" ones aren't bad, but think how much it cost you to get the computer repaired. It wouldn't hurt to invest $30-40 for protection. I'd throw out a few names, but just like noses, everybody has an opinion about which one is better or worse.

And don't click on every link that you see on a web page, or agree to any pop-ups.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic of this thread...

From what I was told Anti Virus would not have helped as this virus disguises itself as a webpage. I did a search for light controller in Bing or Google and of course it gives you about a thousand matches. I clicked on one of of the choices and WHAM to late. I have narrowed it down to a few webpages that could be the culprit. Sometime in the near future I will break out one of my older computers and find out which site it was. I will then install various anti virus too see if the computer geeks are right that anti virus would not catch this.

[ctmal]

It sounds like you got one of the variants of windows antivirus 2011. It is malware trying to get your credit card numbers. If it is that, normal antivirus won't protect you but malwarebytes will. It's A free download and can be run in safe mode if necessary.