Monitoring Power Feed Circuits...

[Jeremy Wiles]

Greetings all...

I'm looking for some advice on what direction to go to create a new device or modify an existing one. What I'm trying to accomplish is a way to get notified when one of my GFCI's have tripped. I have 14 GFCI circuits that I fight with every year to keep from tripping. Usually if it dries out for a day after the rain, I am able to reset and all is well, but this year was particularly troubling. After resetting the circuits, the show would run for a while, and then one of them would trip again. By that time I was back inside the house believing that all was running perfectly.

So I would love to build some black box that would monitor the circuits and report status (or lack of status) back to me.

Anyone have something like this in place? Or have an idea on how to accomplish this? I'm pretty good with electronics and programming, so I think I can handle the development, once i'm pushed in the right direction...

Thoughts?


Thanks,

Jeremy

[hcl1]

Well your could get ac switching solid state relays. and wire them into the gfci under the yellow tape that is ually cover a set of screws. Wire the hot from the on the control side. Depending on what relay you get alway open or always closed. You could have a light go off when ever there is no power to the circuit. You would have to run wire all the way to where you want to be able to see your new warning lights out. I might have a few of those relays. Ill have to look around.

[jrock64]

Same idea but a little different.
Use an actual magnetic relay.
http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Relays-I-O-Modules/Low-Signal-Relays-PCB/_/N-5g38?Keyword=120v+relay&FS=True

Place it in a small box and connect a cord to the 120v side that will connect to your display power you want to monitor.
Connect a small 2 conductor wire(spt1, or cat5) to the Normally Closed pins.
Run this wire back to your monitoring point where it will close the circuit and light an LED or sound a buzzer.

Crap
Now I want one.
Just one more thing to build.

Joel

[hcl1]

Yep that will work great. I just hate the clicks. but since they aren't constant won't be bad. I should have those too sitting around also. Need to get rid of some of this stuff.

[jrock64]

Correction...
You want to connect to the Normally open terminals, so when power is lost the circuit closes.

Would not let me edit last post.

Joel

You should only have clicks when power is lost or restored.

For me that would ideally only be two per season.

[Jeremy Wiles]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if there were stand alone relays that worked in that direction. Usually we switch from the low side to turn on the high...

Thanks for the help!

[IdunBenhad]

Hi:
The answer is simple. Just use a 120 vac relay which is powered by the GFCI output. The relay is activated or closed when power is on. When the GFCI trips, the relay opens. You can use zip cord to run back to a central panel. The central panel has low voltage LEDs which are turned on or off, your choice, when the relay opens. Use a single pole, double throw relay. The relay just switches the power to the indicator in the control panel, that way you can run low voltage instead of 120 volts

[ErnieHorning]

Same idea but a little different.
Use an actual magnetic relay.

Same idea but more DIY.

Just use an opto-coupler. You can even use a H11AA1, same one we use for zero cross detection and a couple 15K resistors.

Then parallel all of the output pins. 9429

You should be able to place a pull-down resistor on the emitter to ground and a DC supply to ground and the collector. An LED or buzzer from ground to the emitter. Any input missing the AC should turn on the output.

[P. Short]

Same idea but more DIY.

Just use an opto-coupler. You can even use a H11AA1, same one we use for zero cross detection and a couple 15K resistors.

Then parallel all of the output pins. 9429

You should be able to place a pull-down resistor on the emitter to ground and a DC supply to ground and the collector. An LED or buzzer from ground to the emitter. Any input missing the AC should turn on the output.

I'm not sure that would work...with the outputs in series, any one input that is wired to AC would cause that one output to dominate all of the other outputs. I think that you need a wire-and connection, rather than wire-or connection. And driving an LED (as opposed to a buzzer) would not work, because the LED output would be on during the zero-crossing (albeit dimly).

[ErnieHorning]

I'm not sure that would work...I'm sure that's not going to work.:roll:

I guess it would be a great 'something turned on' circuit.:-?

[griffixdc]

Well your could get ac switching solid state relays. and wire them into the gfci under the yellow tape that is ually cover a set of screws. Wire the hot from the on the control side. Depending on what relay you get alway open or always closed. You could have a light go off when ever there is no power to the circuit. You would have to run wire all the way to where you want to be able to see your new warning lights out. I might have a few of those relays. Ill have to look around.

exact same idea i was thinking except get a relay run the wires from the load side of the Gfi to the relay then the one set of power wires to feed the relay(to feed the warning light circuit )....the relay you want is a Normally closed so when the GFCI trips your warning light turns on :) do this for how ever many gfci circuits you have (not you only need one feed circuit for any or all of the warning lights but still need to run load side of the gfci to the relay/relays) this sequence will tell you when and exactly which one will have tripped

[Skunberg]

A totally different approach for the same effect. Use GFCI's with indicator light, wire all of them to one panel inside. Then piggy back to a regular outlet at the outside location. I'm planning on a permanent sub panel in the basement at the front of the house, with a GFCI panel down stream, then to the outside outlets.

[griffixdc]

A totally different approach for the same effect. Use GFCI's with indicator light, wire all of them to one panel inside. Then piggy back to a regular outlet at the outside location. I'm planning on a permanent sub panel in the basement at the front of the house, with a GFCI panel down stream, then to the outside outlets.

Haha genious,....just learn the indicator light status (either on when tripped, or on when there is power) but yeah this should work and would only take a few extra bucks as opposed to probably about 100 for the relay controlled indicator light idea.....good job !

[wwwgator]

Sorry boys, If using the "monitoring the load side" relay option, you would want to use the N/C normally closed set of contacts. When power is good, you want your indicator light/ buzzer to be off. If the GFI trips, the relay returns to its de-energized state (closes the contacts) and illuminates/activates your signaling device.
This is what we call a normally closed/ held open set up.

Its easier to see a single light turn on out of many VS seeing 1 go out (out of many that are on)

Plus, you are not illuminating all your indicators when things are good, just the ones when things aren't.

[Skunberg]

Haha genious,....just learn the indicator light status (either on when tripped, or on when there is power) but yeah this should work and would only take a few extra bucks as opposed to probably about 100 for the relay controlled indicator light idea.....good job !

PLUS the reset is inside .... No Buurrrrrrrr.......

[n8huntsman]

What about a momentary normally closed relay wired with bell wire to your door bell transformer? Should be simple since it's all low voltage except for the power at the gfci.

[griffixdc]

@ n8huntsman ......would this setup be for all of the different circuits or one of these individually for each circuit or GFCI?

because it wont work if more than one GFCI trips

[n8huntsman]

Good point. I guess you'ld have to have one for each gfci? I was looking for a relay as I described below but couldnt find a suitable one. I still think it could be done with a 555 timer in Monostable mode and a simple bosch style NC relay. But like you mentioned, youl'd need one for each GFCI. Could you conect them all to one relay with a diode inline or would that cause issues?

[griffixdc]

Good point. I guess you'ld have to have one for each gfci? I was looking for a relay as I described below but couldnt find a suitable one. I still think it could be done with a 555 timer in Monostable mode and a simple bosch style NC relay. But like you mentioned, youl'd need one for each GFCI. Could you conect them all to one relay with a diode inline or would that cause issues?

it wouldn't because if you have 2 or more gfci trips you double feeding the relay and if your using different breakers then your going to run 220vac to the relay if more than one trips. this will only work for one GFCi at a time :)

Allan Bradly sells a lot of stuff for control like this

[n8huntsman]

http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9518&d=1295322464
Dang! Ok, it's getting kinda convoluted albeit, still doable. Sorry about my sloppy drawing. I dont wanna take the time to draw it in CAD knowing there is probably something wrong with it.
Note: I accidently switched the the 87 and 87A NO and NC pins, but you'll get the point. The fourth relay would be similar to this. (http://www.the12volt.com/relays/page5.asp#ctm)

[griffixdc]

http://doityourselfchristmas.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9518&d=1295322464
Dang! Ok, it's getting kinda convoluted albeit, still doable. Sorry about my sloppy drawing. I dont wanna take the time to draw it in CAD knowing there is probably something wrong with it.
Note: I accidently switched the the 87 and 87A NO and NC pins, but you'll get the point. The fourth relay would be similar to this. (http://www.the12volt.com/relays/page5.asp#ctm)

roughly looking at it ...it should work :) ....but why are you making it so complex....is this mostly for the bell?...because what was described before is having the GFCI's close by and having the plugs wired load side out ...those plugs will be the the ones that you plug into for your display....having these close by inside the house allows you to see gfci is on....also you can have a 120vac indicator lights on the load side of the GFCI so its brighter to show you that the GFCI is still on :). If they trip the light turns off. if this is for the Bell then yes your going to need relays /transformers for the bell unless you can find a bell about 120 vac (probably cheaper to find a door bell to use instead) Im not sure of this but i think you might be able to find multiple channel relays so you can use one for like 4 devices (i am not sure of this never used one or saw one )

[n8huntsman]

Yep, just to have an audible alert... and to learn what the heck I'm talking about. Sounded easy at first thought so it helps to hear this input, even if the circuit is too cumbersome to be feasible.

[bobkeyes]

I know this may sound stupid and not nearly as much fun, but why not just cure the ground fault problem? I am now into my second year of display. All sorts of weather, rain, snow, ice, wind.....

My first year I had several trips initially. But, after the first couple of night, I had corrected the problems and no more trips. This year I had none.

It does take some work and some electrical "sleuthing", but it is worth it.

[griffixdc]

I know this may sound stupid and not nearly as much fun, but why not just cure the ground fault problem? I am now into my second year of display. All sorts of weather, rain, snow, ice, wind.....

My first year I had several trips initially. But, after the first couple of night, I had corrected the problems and no more trips. This year I had none.

It does take some work and some electrical "sleuthing", but it is worth it.

there really isn't a way to cure the ground fault, but your right there are ways to minimize them ....Dirk was suggesting this tape that bonds to what ever you have electrically and insulates connections from water and moisture. this would work really good for fixing the trip potential

[Jeremy Wiles]

I know this may sound stupid and not nearly as much fun, but why not just cure the ground fault problem? I am now into my second year of display. All sorts of weather, rain, snow, ice, wind.....

My first year I had several trips initially. But, after the first couple of night, I had corrected the problems and no more trips. This year I had none.

It does take some work and some electrical "sleuthing", but it is worth it.

If the fault is because I drove rebar through my wiring, then I find and fix it. But if the fault is due to water getting into 1 of about a 100,000 locations, it's not that easy to fix. And sometimes the show will go a while before that "problem" reappears. Unless I stand and watch it, I sometimes don't even know it's tripped. Thus the desire for a monitor...

The relay idea looks the best so far as it's easy to design electronics to do "stuff" based on a signal from a relay. I just wish there was a cleaner option than a bunch of relays wired into the 120. Maybe it's not too messy, just trying to get wrap my head around it...

[n8huntsman]

Another thought that is definately outside my realm of knowledge, what about programming a PIC to sense multiple inputs (one from each GFCI so you don't have to have so many relays) then if one goes low, it would trigger an output on another pin? I think the hardest part of that would be bringing the voltage down to levels the PIC can handle. Would that even be worth investigating?

[griffixdc]

Another thought that is definately outside my realm of knowledge, what about programming a PIC to sense multiple inputs (one from each GFCI so you don't have to have so many relays) then if one goes low, it would trigger an output on another pin? I think the hardest part of that would be bringing the voltage down to levels the PIC can handle. Would that even be worth investigating?

i'm no help in this field, i have no idea. I need to study Pics and Micro controllers to know their main tasks and how to manipulate them. creating the voltage at the proper levels shouldn't be hard to achieve

[wwwgator]

A buddy of mine used some old Koyo direct plc's we scrapped out of retired machines. they had 0-10VDC "anaolg cards".
He took a bunch of amp-clamps he got from Harbor freight ($6/ea if I remember correctly) set for amps- ran display directly to analog inputs.
could program what ever he wanted. The main project was to learn to map buttons for GUI applications and using recycled parts for free....
suppose you could monitor the circuits that way....take snap shots of the varying peak loading supplying the GFCI's...could get all sorts of peak reading data as well as tripped GFCI information .

[P. Short]

Another thought that is definately outside my realm of knowledge, what about programming a PIC to sense multiple inputs (one from each GFCI so you don't have to have so many relays) then if one goes low, it would trigger an output on another pin? I think the hardest part of that would be bringing the voltage down to levels the PIC can handle. Would that even be worth investigating?

Inelegant as far as I'm concerned, but it would work. With a little bit of ingenuity it could be made to work with the H11AA1 optos that Ernie mentioned in an earlier post.

Another way (also using the H11AA1 opto) would be to add an NE555-based missing-pulse detector after the opto. You could connect each opto output to an individual NE555 circuit. Or you wire the H11AA1 outputs in series going to just one missing-pulse-detector, and rely on your eyes to determine which GFCI tripped.